# Why Eve is not a PvP game **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** pve, pvp, industrial\ **Created:** [May 12, 2020, 9:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538 "2020-05-12T09:59:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Apo\_Lamperouge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/apo_lamperouge/32/420136_2.png) [@Apo\_Lamperouge](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Apo_Lamperouge)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/219 "2020-05-13T13:03:21Z")
it would be Hello Kitty online, cake simulator or whatever. any number of stupid flash browser games that are clickbait on facebook ---
**Author:** ![Apo\_Lamperouge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/apo_lamperouge/32/420136_2.png) [@Apo\_Lamperouge](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Apo_Lamperouge)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 1:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/220 "2020-05-13T13:10:38Z")
> [@Karol\_Godula](#): > > What’s the point of this rant? there isn’t one. it’s all circular arguments and salt. _some_ people don’t understand that these singular concepts can’t survive without each other. without miners building stuff to blow up, there won’t be stuff blowing up. it’s a whole system, with something for everyone, however, there is no safety; in pve you can die by npc or pc. every aspect of the game is built on confrontation. market tycoons against other market tycoons. miners fight for resources (and that happens a lot more than people realize; you should see the competition for ice belts in nullsec sometimes) and players pew pew for any number of reasons. TLDR this game doesn’t live in a vacuum of identity, and a bunch of people are salty about it… well a couple notable ones at least ---
**Author:** ![Apo\_Lamperouge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/apo_lamperouge/32/420136_2.png) [@Apo\_Lamperouge](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Apo_Lamperouge)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/221 "2020-05-13T13:29:32Z")
> [@Rekindle](#): > > look at the giant care bear null blocks and say they are elite pvp no one is saying they are elite pvp. only in the way that they are being ridiculed. the point is that there is something for everyone, gargantuan fleet battles like x47, small gang lowsec, miner-bumping in highsec, ganking freighters in choke points to trade hubs. but ok you want to talk L33T pvp? talk iBeast whooping ass on serenity now with low sp toons, the blops master MasL dropping solo officer fit sins on guys in null (I barely managed to escape him once), LumpyMayo ECM bursting everyone in big tidi clusterf$$ks and my favorite, Lumio en Tilivine. That guy was friggin hilarious. trade in your salt for the bigger picture. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/222 "2020-05-13T14:44:23Z")
Well bravo. But you can’t even get that far without exposing yourself to pvp anyways… 🤷‍♂️ ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 3:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/224 "2020-05-13T15:09:53Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Then you don’t understand gamers. Ah yes, reduce an entire argument to a vague “you don’t understand gamers” with no explanation whatsoever of why “gamers” will continue to play a boring game with no meaningful goals or purpose and do so in large enough numbers to keep CCP in business. This is an incredibly compelling point you make and I must concede defeat to your superior wisdom. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > As I’ve stated above too, if you imagine two new servers being set up, one with just PvE, and one just PvP, the PvE one would look much teh same as it does now with missions and mining and the like, just no player market, while the PvP server would be people shooting each other in default fit rookie ships which themselves were granted by NPCs. That suggests that PvE is more fundamental to the game than PvP. As I’ve stated above that’s not the reality of things. The PvP server would be much smaller in population but still function normally, as industry is a PvP activity and plenty of PvP players would maintain interest in a game of competitive capitalism and warfare. The PvE server would not exist because without PvP destruction to drive the market PvE would have little point. People would join, do a few missions and sell a bit of ore to NPCs, and quickly get bored and quit. Your claim about PvE being more important relies on an excessively narrow definition of PvP combined with extremely optimistic assumptions about how many people would continue to do PvE when the player-driven economy is removed. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/226 "2020-05-13T16:48:02Z")
> [@Gowa\_Hyasyoda](#): > > Eve is not a PvP g… “Clone Activated!” > > "Warning! > > You are super dead! > > These things happen in Eve online, though we don’t know why…" > > [OK] > Why Eve is not a PvP game? ![Captura de Tela 2020-05-13 às 13.47.46](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/a/6/a6562711eaac3311c4892b63c72cd8549dcc6eba.png) yeah i wish eve was a pvp gaeme ---
**Author:** ![Eve\_Griefer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eve_griefer/32/277788_2.png) [@Eve\_Griefer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eve_Griefer)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/227 "2020-05-13T21:37:43Z")
I might just try this out on an alt for a challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 11:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/229 "2020-05-13T23:09:26Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Yesterday there were 4 times as many people watching people play farming simulator 19 on twitch than there were watching people play EVE. That’s a terrible comparison. Streaming audiences depend far more on how entertaining the performer is than the game they are playing, and there are plenty of people getting lots of fans by playing and mocking terrible games (which nobody watching would ever buy). If you want a relevant comparison than you need to provide _player_ numbers. > Your view is that if PvP didn’t exist, people wouldn’t engage in PvE farming yet there are countless examples of games with no PvP - many single player games in fact - that people do engage with. There are lots of _good_ games with no PvP that people engage with. EVE without PvE would be a terrible game. Combat PvE is boring as hell and extremely repetitive once you learn how the game works, and even if you allow industry to exist there’s no long-term satisfaction in building a giant pile of useless ships that nobody will ever buy. > Sure, the “PvP” server would be fine if you decided to classify all PvE activities as PvP, including ratting and mining. Mining is primarily\* PvP. Activating a mining laser does not involve other players, but only in the same way that undocking from a station does not involve other players. You can only remove other players from the picture by focusing on one part of the task and ignoring the fact that success or failure in mining is determined by competition with other players. That makes mining, like the rest of the industry chain, a PvP activity. \*It does now have a minor PvE element in the triglavian spawns, but those are little more than anti-AFK enforcement and do very little to make mining appealing or enjoyable. > There would be plenty of people who would just be seeking to build up their own stuff for no other reason than the accomplishment of doing so. But what accomplishment is there when success is guaranteed and the process of getting there is completely straightforward? Without the competitive capitalism aspect of EVE the “accomplishment” of building stuff is nothing more than a statement that you have spent X hours “playing” EVE, and would provide little more satisfaction than the “accomplishment” of successfully logging in. > You know there’s an EVE player who flew around visiting and documenting every system, right? That’s a tiny minority, and in fact only newsworthy at all _because_ it is such a rare thing. A game can not survive on the handful of players who will set a goal of building every single buildable item in EVE just to be the first to do it. > Not at all, I’m saying that the core foundation of all of the player-driven mechanics is the creation of wealth and resources from PvE activities. Nope. Industry is PvP and by far the most interesting part of the player-driven economy, and industry would continue to sustain combat PvP even if PvE was removed. PvE contributes almost nothing of value to EVE beyond its effects on the ISK source/sink balance and EVE would go on just fine without it. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/231 "2020-05-14T00:01:15Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I agree, since PvE is the core of EVE. That’s like stating that the core of driving a car is sitting. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Just because you’ve arbitrarily decided that shooting a laser at a rock is PvP, doesn’t make it the case. The action isn’t what dictates if something is PvP or not, the environment does. In EvE you are in an environment with other players and, as stated, almost no activities can be performed without the influence to some degree of other players ego, it’s PvP. You can literally play a game like EvE with mining, trade, combat, etc but as it’s 100% against the computer, that is NOT PvP…(X-series of games)… Playing GTA5 offline vs online is the same game but one is PvP and the other is PvE…it’s the environment, not the action. Shooting rock in X4 is PvE where as in ED(online) or EvE it’s PvP… ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/232 "2020-05-14T00:09:28Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > the environment does. The action is undocking into the environment. Once you undock, you consent to pvp in some way, shape, manner or form. Just as posting in the forums is. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/233 "2020-05-14T00:11:20Z")
Not even undocking…anything on the market is PvP too and for that you can just spin ships all day… Using PUSH you could run a trading empire and never even fly in Eve…still would be PvP though. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/234 "2020-05-14T00:12:01Z")
Very true, I was just being general. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/236 "2020-05-14T00:24:04Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > If that were the case then there would be no such thing as PvE in any game where PvP can coexist. Technically you are correct because at any moment PvP could erupt. PvP supersedes PvE but the reverse does not exist unless there is some mechanism like in ED where you can play the same game instance online or offline. Eve is a PvP environment where you can perform PvE activities… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > you lot jump on them screaming about how they are carebears, I haven’t done that once yet here so…nor am I jumping up and down. PvE can be improved and expanded on if that would make Eve better…trying to separate the two (PvP and PvE) though normally is met with great hostility. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 2:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/237 "2020-05-14T02:25:34Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Clearly more than nobody and that’s significantly less engaging gameplay that the variety of EVE PvE. I’m honestly not sure how to respond to this. You are simultaneously claiming that the game is not engaging and that many people are engaged by it. So which side of it do you believe is true? > and how anyone that engages in mining PvP is “farmer trash” Stop lying with this ridiculous straw man, I have explained multiple times that this is not true. “Farmer trash” is directed at a subset of self-identified PvE players whose only response to adversity, especially in the form of PvP, is to demand that CCP make the game easier so their wallet numbers can go up faster. There are many people who engage in mining, industry, even PvE who are not farmer trash. > For the vast majority of mining that’s not the case. That’s pretty much only applicable to highsec ice mining. Nope. What determines the success or failure of mining? The point where you engage in the PvP economy and either sell the ore or use it in production (which is then sold). Merely sitting there accumulating ore in your cargo is not the full activity of mining, much like undocking from a station is not the full activity of combat PvP. > I’m not sure if you’re aware but some people can actually think up things to do and aim for on their own. But, again, what are those things? You can’t argue that any conceivable game will have players because the players will find something to do even when the game provides no structure for progress. And in the absence of PvP there is nothing to aim for. Why, say, build a battleship when you know from the beginning exactly what it will take to do so and there is zero chance of failure? It becomes nothing more than “click the following sequence of buttons to get your participation trophy”. > If you’re suggesting only a tiny minority of EVE players create their own goals, you’re definitely going to need to cite a source for that. Create their own _unconventional goals_. Most players create goals but they are conventional things like “make a billion ISK trading” that only make sense in the context of a PvP game. A PvE-only version of EVE would have few meaningful goals like this and so would only appeal to the kind of person who sets an unconventional goal like “visit every single system without dying”. > To _you_ . To pretty much anyone. Why does EVE get attention, because of the player-driven industrial economy or because you can farm missions and make tons of ISK per hour? > Just because you’ve arbitrarily decided that shooting a laser at a rock is PvP, doesn’t make it the case. There is nothing arbitrary about it at all, it’s right there in the terms: “player vs. player” and “player vs. environment”. If you are mining you are competing with other players, not NPCs\* or environmental forces. A PvP-only version of EVE would still have mining producing resources for industry, the only loss to industry would be the lack of mission loot to reprocess. And that can easily be corrected by increasing mining yields to compensate. \*Outside of triglavian spawns which are a relatively small factor other than as AFK prevention. ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_projekt/32/204683_2.png) [@Solecist\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 7:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/238 "2020-05-14T07:02:18Z")
Four minutes in and LGR is literally praising Skylines. It has a lot of SimCity to it. A bonus point! ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 9:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/240 "2020-05-14T09:00:10Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Nope. The rule is that I can only buy from NPC sell orders or sell to NPC buy orders, so no interaction with players on the market whatsoever, and can’t dock or use any services at any player-owned structure. > > He’s omega simply because the account is omega and I’m not going to use any of the event gifts because I think that can break the challenge a bit. I will use the regular permanent daily gifts though that everyone gets. > > If he gets podded by a player, he gets biomassed. > > Any other rules people want to add? This can be a lot of fun trying. I’ll think about giving it a try myself. ---
**Author:** ![Nordak\_Balrem](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nordak_balrem/32/200160_2.png) [@Nordak\_Balrem](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nordak_Balrem)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 9:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/241 "2020-05-14T09:29:18Z")
I’m going to post to the entire thread as a whole, EVE is whatever you and others want to make it. No point arguing to what that means as people are going to try and make sand castles, and others are going to go around trying to knock down sand castles. If you go making the sole perspective of PVP, the game still needs to incentivise industry to support you and others to make things to fight over. The reverse is also true, it needs to incentivise the destruction and disruption of production. Right now the game is in a somewhat unhealthy state, there is too much stuff. This makes it unproductive to build more stuff at the moment, If you look at the most important things that needs built, ships, you actually lose value when you build the hulls. We either need the devs or better yet, the players to remove the glut of over produced goods from the game. While OP is correct in many aspects, mining is not the core activity in the game, every facet of the game from PVE activities to PVP activities are core to the eve experience. If everyone was mining and producing all the time, then you get a point where nothing is worth making or doing. ---
**Author:** ![Nordak\_Balrem](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nordak_balrem/32/200160_2.png) [@Nordak\_Balrem](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nordak_Balrem)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 9:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/243 "2020-05-14T09:38:20Z")
Look at mineral and PI value, you get more ISK for just selling them directly than building ships even in Null. The only way you make more is if there is a local surplus of minerals, or a local scarcity of ships. But from a hub perspective, you lose value producing ships. My arguement is that there is a global glut of produced goods. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 9:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/248 "2020-05-14T09:52:37Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Not correct. It just means that PvE can be interrupted by PvP. It doesn’t stop the PvE mechanics being PvE. I think there is a big difference in what people consider ‘PvP’ to be. As long as we do not agree on one definition or recognise that there are multiple definitions, we’ll keep talking in circles forever. - For some people, ‘PvP’ means when someone else is shooting your ship or otherwise actively having an impact on you. - For other people, ‘PvP’ means the _possibility_ of someone else interfering with your business. I personally see EVE as PvP game, because PvP can be everywhere. Mining in safety doesn’t exist and I’m always watching my surroundings for potential enemies, which means that even if I could mine for half an hour without interruption, it’s still PvP gameplay. And also PvE, obviously. Some others think that this gameplay was purely PvE, because there was no PvP interruption. Neither is wrong, it’s just a different definition. We just need to be clear to some newbies who may think that they can play without PvP interruptions, that: EVE is PvP game ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_projekt/32/204683_2.png) [@Solecist\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 11:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/260 "2020-05-14T11:23:25Z")
Clearly, with highsec systems turning into lowsec, it is clear as crystal pepsi that this game is a PvE game. It’s so much of a PvE game, when the PvErs suck at it … … highsec systems are going to turn into lowsec. Hahahaha suck it, losers. 😊 [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538.md?page=9) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538.md?page=11)