# Why Eve is not a PvP game **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** industrial, pve, pvp\ **Created:** [May 12, 2020, 9:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538 "2020-05-12T09:59:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/481 "2020-05-21T15:17:17Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s not so much the structure of the economy as the decisions made by larger numbers of people. Structure, numbers, that’s not what constitutes depth or shallowness. It’s the unpredictable ways in which players in EvE can and did react to changes or induce changes that makes it anything but shallow. That this is possible in New Eden is fairly unique. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/483 "2020-05-21T15:23:59Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > If you say so fanboi. 🤣 Saying a positive thing about EvE equates to being a fanboi, in your mindset. And you haven’t even seen my awesome tattoo, you must be clairvoyant. Why so bitter ? Or better still, why make us swallow that bitterness or yours every day ? ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 3:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/484 "2020-05-21T15:25:54Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Can you show me where I’ve suggested we should have PvE arenas? Same place where you will find I suggested we have PvP arenas…that was the point…which you missed. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > If PvP can exist then all aspects of the game are PvP. Nope because PvP/PvP is dictated by who you are competing against IN the game…not outside of it. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Yes, here is you calling it PvP. …and here is the full quote, not just what you cherry picked… > Playing GTA5 offline vs online is the same game but one is PvP and the other is PvE…it’s the environment, not the action. Shooting rock in X4 is PvE where as in ED(online) or EvE it’s PvP… Again, I was referring to the environment… ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/485 "2020-05-21T15:26:38Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > Why so bitter ? Or better still, why make us swallow that bitterness or yours every day ? It’s all he has it seems…hate for a game he’s too weak to leave… ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/487 "2020-05-21T15:45:25Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > echoing the nonsense without really thinking about it does Right, the Kellian view about EvE’s economic model is not going to win prizes, except a raspberry award. Nonsense ? Not really thinking ? Care to mention one other game with a similar, almost entirely player run economy ? And before you go that way, the current readjustment of resources is the biggest intervention by the game developer since the start, so that is not an argument (in fact how players respond to it will probably hold a few surprises). > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > How does the full quote change the fact that you say quite clearly that shooting a rock in EVE is PvP? That’s an easy one and Runa will probably not mind me answering. He made the difference in the game context. If someone sees you mining in the open online hence shared environment, that pilot always has the choice to attack your mining ship i.e., you’re exposed to PvP. Simplified it means that yes, mining is part of PvP becaused ‘exposed’. You can opt to mindlessly echo your own definition of PvP or realize that other people’s definitions - sometimes incompletely worded, true - actually make sense in even a broader way. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/489 "2020-05-21T15:55:10Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > another lunatic Ironic 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/490 "2020-05-21T19:32:35Z")
I’d like to thank the “Everything in EVE is PvP” crowd for showing up and doing exactly as predicted. It’s nice to have something work out just the way you expect. We’ve seen “The market is PvP” , “Undocking is PvP” , “Mining is PvP” , even “Interaction between players is PvP”. I’m a bit surprised nobody came up with “Logging in is PvP”. Or maybe they did and I just missed it. For most of the people arguing “it’s all PvP”, the OP or the game or the success of Eve aren’t the point. They simply want someone to argue against - probably because the game they signed up for to push their “I want conflict” buttons doesn’t actually feature enough conflict to keep them satisfied, so they come to the forums instead for their ‘PvP’. The OPs’ point, lost in the debate and hairsplitting over how many ways you can define any interaction between two players to be ‘PvP’, seemed to be that EVE was more than just PvP; in fact PvP isn’t even it’s key feature, and that non-PvP playstyles are equally valid. Funnily enough, the crowd that jumped in to disagree with that basically end up saying all other playstyles **are** PvP, so they’re all just as valid anyway. So much for having a clue about what you’re arguing against! At any rate, the only (barely) meaningful discussion to be had about PvP is not whether .01 ISKing (or the 4-sig-digit version thereof) constitutes PvP. It’s about what needs to be changed or improved about Eve in order to ensure the future and at least moderate success for the game. If you define trading, hauling, mining, industry, exploration, undocking and logging in to be ‘PvP’ then you’ve got nothing meaningful to say about the game. Everything in EVE becomes PvP, and since “EVE is a PvP game” then by definition, it’s all good. Every playstyle is completely valid and interesting (because PVP is supposedly the ‘most interesting’ part of EVE and it’s **ALL PvP** ) and no changes need to be made. In the thread [In ONE sentence, what change would u like to see in eveonline?](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-one-sentence-what-change-would-u-like-to-see-in-eveonline/226429) I referred to EVE as a “40% PVE, 30% economic simulator, 20% PVP and 10% exploration” game. Those numbers are fairly accurate, although of course I was being a bit generous with the PvP portion there. It’s more like 15%. Personally I believe EVE would be a lot better off as a 30% PvE, 30% PvP, 25% Economic and 15% Exploration game. To make that happen, actual ship-to-ship **combat** needs to be made more interesting, more accessible, better rewarded and given more nuanced consequences than the actually quite minimal and lame combat environment we have now. You can try to define marketing or mining as PvP all you want, but if you aren’t addressing actual ship combat, you’re probably not saying anything more useful than “I like to argue about word definitions”. If that’s your cup of tea, check out Scrabble. [**It’s PvP!**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJj_XEJPtkc) ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/491 "2020-05-21T20:33:12Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > If that’s your cup of tea, check out Scrabble. [**It’s PvP!**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJj_XEJPtkc) yes it is > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > “Logging in is PvP”. > [@tutucox\_Khamsi](#): > > if you click log in you consent to pvp * * * > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Personally I believe EVE would be a lot better off as a 30% PvE, 30% PvP, 25% Economic better data ![Captura de Tela 2020-05-16 às 19.32.22](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/9/1/9106c9fcb98c27e862495a9d60ce17ae6c033e1e.jpeg) > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > actually quite minimal and lame combat environment we have now. ![Captura de Tela 2020-05-21 às 17.40.20](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/3/a/3ae7dd85414254860a8cd435bdd0318df7af8007.png) should try more , they say the third time is the best ty that said eve is a pvp game ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/492 "2020-05-21T21:27:34Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > For most of the people arguing “it’s all PvP”, the OP or the game or the success of Eve aren’t the point. Nice revisionist history there. Let’s not ignore the fact that this whole discussion of what is or isn’t PvE started with Lucas Kell making the idiotic claim that if you take away PvE nothing would be left except mindless Fortnite arena battles between free tutorial ships. The only reason anyone is discussing what is or isn’t PvP is to point out that EVE would work just fine without the PvE players because plenty of people are interested in the competitive capitalism aspect of mining/industry/etc. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 10:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/494 "2020-05-21T22:38:21Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > the success of Eve Because ALL MMOs must follow the WoW aka “Modern” model to be successful. Cookie cutter brain… ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 10:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/495 "2020-05-21T22:39:01Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > call the entire game and all of its mechanics PvP Yes…glad to see you are learning that some games like Eve or other online MP game are pure or nearly pure PvP experiences even if they have PvE content. Good to hear. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > you say quite clearly that shooting a rock in EVE is PvP Becasue you are lying. I said shooting rocks IN A PVP ENVIRONMENT makes mining PVP. That’s why I included the full quote but of course, you ignore it and just lie more. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/497 "2020-05-21T22:40:32Z")
> [@Rekindle](#): > > there you go yet again. No need to attack the player for an opinion. You complete utter troll. How is that trolling? He clearly hates many aspects of the game so I was just stating a fact. I didn’t call him a name (unlike you ironically) too so…WTF are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 10:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/498 "2020-05-21T22:41:10Z")
> [@Rekindle](#): > > calm down ganker. So you call me a troll and Kezrai a ganker…lol…wow… ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/500 "2020-05-21T22:43:50Z")
More off-topic attacks…keep going Rekindle LOL… ---
**Author:** ![Rekindle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rekindle/32/382332_2.png) [@Rekindle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rekindle)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/501 "2020-05-21T22:50:17Z")
im out - not worth it - rip eve. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/502 "2020-05-21T22:51:56Z")
Bye…we’ll miss you. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 11:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/503 "2020-05-21T23:02:56Z")
> [@Rekindle](#): > > im out - not worth it - rip eve. Back to **The River Fodder** with you. Next. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 11:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/504 "2020-05-21T23:37:13Z")
o/ can i have your… a forget it ---
**Author:** ![darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darkestkhan_eriker/32/390091_2.png) [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/darkestkhan_Eriker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/505 "2020-05-22T00:51:41Z")
> [@Kaabii](#): > > for me is it like this > 1.0~0.5=PvE You are saying that market plays are not pvp? By the Great Mother… ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 1:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538/506 "2020-05-22T01:44:28Z")
I like this thd because it will go on forever like the afk cloaked thd. 🍿 [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538.md?page=17) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-eve-is-not-a-pvp-game/240538.md?page=19)