# Why I care about new players, and you should too **URL:** \ **Category:** Assembly Hall\ **Tags:** new-player\ **Created:** [September 5, 2023, 11:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998 "2023-09-05T11:33:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 9:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/41 "2023-09-06T09:23:32Z")
> [@Tikka](#): > > Is this the official CCP point of view? > Do the Corps not belong in high-sec as a staging space to grow and get ready? Likely not, lol, it’s my opinion you asked for. But ask yourself how can highsec be a staging space for anything else than highsec, if you can’t learn anything about other spaces there? All spaces in EvE have different rules, pros and cons, for various activities, none is obsolete if “you moved on”. There is no progression out of something. Another misconception about EvE in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Tikka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tikka/32/508952_2.png) [@Tikka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tikka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 9:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/42 "2023-09-06T09:31:29Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > Because current high sec is sterile from the above list, there is no opportunity to “grow”. Only the most elite, well-resourced can do high sec PvP (wardecs and ganking is all thats left), and this is by design of poor game mechanics. When only the best can do PvP, the targets only ever have stories of failure. There’s never a “I survived a rookie pirate” story. There _used_ to be plenty See, with the context you provided now, I have the chance to understand where you are coming from. I do agree with you here. Many years ago, I founded a new player mercenary corp and started in high-sec. It went very well as the times were different and those things were possible for many people who wanted to give it a try. All I point out in the second half of my op is that ALL new corps now face the problem of never (almost never) being able to grow and be ready to survive low-sec or the 0.0 as an entity. I see this as a problem. It would be a sad answer to point out that there are enough established corps or alliances they should (must) join. > [@Tikka](#): > > A vibrant influx of new corporations, potentially banding together for more audacious endeavors in low-sec or 0.0 territories, would invigorate the EVE landscape. These newcomers deserve not just a chance but a conducive environment to flourish. It’s literally what I wrote in my op. Thank you for providing context in your answer. ---
**Author:** ![Tikka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tikka/32/508952_2.png) [@Tikka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tikka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 9:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/43 "2023-09-06T09:41:26Z")
I did ask myself this and found answers to this question by listening to the people and their problems. By collecting this data, looking at it, and finally, I would be able to point out factors where some of the challenges are to be found. If you would be interested in a detailed conversation, I would join this discussion in a new thread and lay out my findings. The thing is, it will be a long and mostly dull read for many. A wall of text that by merely existing is an insult and violation to random people who do not read it anyway 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/44 "2023-09-06T10:02:29Z")
> [@Tikka](#): > > I have the chance to understand where you are coming from. I do agree with you here. Yes, we are aligned on root problems. > [@Tikka](#): > > All I point out in the second half of my op is that ALL new corps now face the problem of never (almost never) being able to grow and be ready to survive low-sec or the 0.0 as an entity. I don’t think I’m aligned with this. I can see how you think it is a “natural” “progression” to go from highsec, to lowsec, to null/WH. I don’t think this is realistic. I think it’s completely made-up, unenforceable, unnecessarily restrictive, and in fact a downright disservice to rookies to convince that that “this is the way to progress”. It is not. Eve Online is a sandbox: just _go_ and _do_. There’s no barriers to zones like in Albion Online, or other MMOs. Nothing stops a 2 month old character from trying to live in NPC nullsec, or WH space (Hence why I brought up the pair of new players I bumped into and blew up one in jspace). Fundamentally it is about _freedom to do_ “anything” versus _freedom from others_ “to be on-rails”. That is what I see as the fundamental philosophical difference. There are no rails, and players should have maximal opportunity to _do_ things and _not_ be told “you can’t” by vets. That I consider toxic behavior by veterans. The difference in these approaches is quite evident: many people think to achieve the goal of “being prepared for on-rails progression” is therefore to _make Eve Online safer_. This follows the same mindset that I called “inapplicable” and “festering” and I directly relate the two. These calls for safety often look like “punishing gankers”, or moreso, removing them from the game completely. These calls for removal on the forums is usually rooted in a toxic griefing “haha I got them to quit the game by calling upon CCP Games to change the mechanics” kind of mindset. While I understand why they have the underlying human emotion towards gankers, it should be (and would not be toxic if it were) kept _in game_. There’s _already_ large swaths of high sec would-be rookie pirates and veteran pirates of high sec that went the way of the Dodo bird. There was a lot of dancing-on-graves, and when people think of the “toxic Eve Online community”, I think of the _remaining players_ that danced. Not the unsubbed, logged-off, bored players whose high sec engaging gameplay was eliminated. This is why such mindsets continue to get pejoratively labelled as “carebear”. The pejorative is earned because history has shown, repeatedly, that making Eve Online safer caters to very toxic, self-righteous, proudly-pacifist mindsets that cannot and do not survive anywhere else in Eve – as these players try to rectify the outside, wider gaming culture that is completely inapplicable and incongruous here. Because this mindset can _only_ survive in high sec, it’s like a cancer that people feel needs to be pushed into other areas of space: by definition they are (proudly) weak so they _have_ to rely on CCP Games to provide the mechanics that let them survive elsewhere. No. (Edit: This is also why they hijack the “but think of the newbs” banner often – rookies are by definition weak, so they Trojan Horse their agenda with this banner. I don’t currently believe you’re doing this, but it is often a very fine line to discern) The _more realistic_ answer IMO is to _lean into_ Eve Online’s strengths: _more_ PvP. Let rookies get used to losing ships regularly. Let them learn _how to learn_ efficiently, so that they internalize the 8 golden rules (including “never fly what you can’t afford to lose”). The action is the fun part, the social part, the part that gets emotions fired up, and the part that gets people to log into tomorrow. Not the same mission as yesterday (and the day before (and the day before (…))). ---
**Author:** ![Tikka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tikka/32/508952_2.png) [@Tikka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tikka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/45 "2023-09-06T10:18:20Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > The _more realistic_ answer IMO is to _lean into_ Eve Online’s strengths: _more_ PvP. Let rookies get used to losing ships regularly. Let them learn _how to learn_ efficiently, so that they internalize the 8 golden rules (including “never fly what you can’t afford to lose”). The action is the fun part, the social part, the part that gets emotions fired up, and the part that gets people to log into tomorrow. Not the same mission as yesterday (and the day before (and the day before (…))). I still agree. 🙂 Solving the 5 to 8-week wall of death for player retention and its connection to ganking is not connected to problems of the new corps problems. These problems have nothing to do with ganking, and I never wrote that. These are two separate problems on a new player and new corp journey. But I’m afraid I have to disagree that there should only be a few ways to play the game. The more ways to play it, the better it is, in my opinion. Many new corps have also plans to leave the high-sec but on their time. I am not sure if I ever talked to a new corp that wanted to keep playing in high-sec forever as a goal. Go to WH = good Go to low-sec = good Go to 0.0. = good Go to high-sec = good (and all other things I forgot here to mention) Try everything as you like = perfect. You made excellent points in your post here; I might not agree with all of them, but that still makes them valid points. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/46 "2023-09-06T10:26:12Z")
> [@Tikka](#): > > These problems have nothing to do with ganking, and I never wrote that. I understand. You appreciated the context I provided earlier, so I wanted to elaborate more of where I am coming from. Sorry for implying this. > [@Tikka](#): > > But I’m afraid I have to disagree that there should only be a few ways to play the game. Not sure where I said that. I agree with you that there should be diverse playstyles, which only comes from open-ended, minimally-restrictive, well-designed mechanics. Perhaps this is a reference to mentioning PvP. PvP is not “one playstyle” nor is it “a few ways”. It is the _whole_ point of the game, all-encompassing in everything everyone does, no matter how much an individual dislikes it, wants it gone, or ignores it. The big disservice are CCP’s marketing lies that try to paint the game as something else, in my experience (vastly smaller to yours) rookies quit because of these mismatched expectations – maybe at the 6-8 week mark. ---
**Author:** ![Tikka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tikka/32/508952_2.png) [@Tikka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tikka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/47 "2023-09-06T10:27:04Z")
By the way, is there a way to send a pm in this forum? ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/48 "2023-09-06T10:28:45Z")
I think there used to be. They may have it disabled it due to abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Tikka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tikka/32/508952_2.png) [@Tikka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tikka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/49 "2023-09-06T10:32:38Z")
I wrote to you in-game… I hope its you 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tikka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tikka/32/508952_2.png) [@Tikka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tikka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/50 "2023-09-06T10:33:59Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > The big disservice are CCP’s marketing lies that try to paint the game as something else, in my experience (vastly smaller to yours) rookies quit because of these mismatched expectations – maybe at the 6-8 week mark. Yes, I think this could be a part of it ---
**Author:** ![Melicien\_Tetro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/melicien_tetro/32/460693_2.png) [@Melicien\_Tetro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Melicien_Tetro)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/51 "2023-09-06T15:53:39Z")
My mail is open as well! ---
**Author:** ![Tikka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tikka/32/508952_2.png) [@Tikka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tikka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/52 "2023-09-06T19:41:49Z")
I will send you an email in-game in a few hours as soon as I am back. I think we can do something good here. ---
**Author:** ![Behrenard\_Frogiter](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/behrenard_frogiter/32/385835_2.png) [@Behrenard\_Frogiter](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Behrenard_Frogiter)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2023, 7:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/53 "2023-09-08T19:02:19Z")
I’m one of the new players you recruited. Started in february 2022, joined EDI in march, and hit the mission running boredom wall in april. Luckyly found abyssals to be more fun and less devasting for my Gallente standings (Caldari security agents always give newbs anti-Gallente missions, it sucks.) and got ganked the first time in may. > **[Worm | Behrenard Frogiter | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/100592222/)** > > Behrenard Frogiter (EDENCOM Section 7) lost their Worm in Vellaine (Lonetrek) Total Value: 114,647,796.05 ISK yup, my first gank was in an above 100 million worm, and i had enough cash left to equip a new one right away. The gank had nothing to do with my motivation to stay, it just happend at a time after i found content i liked more than mission running. So, i don’t think the “quitting after 2 months” is caused by ganking, i think it’s caused by boredom, because that’s the time when you really need to figure out where to leave the railroads and find your spot in the sandbox. Any other MMORPG, you need to take missions from NPCs to advance. In Eve, you at one point need to tell the NPC mission agents to go fck themselves because you found something more enjoyable for yourself. Sure, you’ll make ISK and you’ll advance to a more blingy ship, and you’ll get ganked. But that will only throw you off if you haven’t yet found your personal niche. ---
**Author:** ![Behrenard\_Frogiter](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/behrenard_frogiter/32/385835_2.png) [@Behrenard\_Frogiter](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Behrenard_Frogiter)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2023, 7:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/54 "2023-09-08T19:08:48Z")
> [@Darius\_Dee](#): > > Which is guided by the agent missions and sisters of eve quite nice. before i found out that i like abyssals, PI, and market PVP, i had one alt start the sisters epic arc. After 18 months, he still hasn’t finished it, because railroaded mission running is not what i enjoy in Eve. ---
**Author:** ![Behrenard\_Frogiter](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/behrenard_frogiter/32/385835_2.png) [@Behrenard\_Frogiter](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Behrenard_Frogiter)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2023, 7:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/55 "2023-09-08T19:33:49Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > There’s never a “I survived a rookie pirate” story. There _used_ to be plenty. Pochven. My first visit there. Got tackled, shot, and finally escaped. No killmail because no ship died. ---
**Author:** ![Dario\_Kaelenter](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dario_kaelenter/32/383143_2.png) [@Dario\_Kaelenter](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dario_Kaelenter)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/56 "2023-09-08T21:42:51Z")
> [@Tikka](#): > > To the new faces of the CSM: There lies an opportunity, albeit challenging, to champion the cause of EVE’s silent newcomers This is definitely a part of my platform for CSM this year. Through the iterations and updates of the New Player Experience (NPE) /Tutorial I have played (or at least tried) as though I knew nothing and raised some bugs and points and given feed back to CCP. It is much better than nothing though as people all learn things at different paces, and as there is so much to learn in Eve I think it would be an advantage to have more after that Tutorial combined with the Career agents to explain things and prepare players for life in New Eden. Part of that is definitely explaining many of the options available to them and helping them decide on what their goals may be. Having them find a corp that suits them can be great but shouldn’t be the only way to learn and grow - there are still many long term NPC members that are more than happy and capable playing there and a number of them positively represent good parts of the game in advising and guiding new members. The great thing about Eve is that there is no one play style and no one goal to achieve to “win the game”. That can also leave players lost at times. Anything to help more players have positive first experiences and stay playing longer can only be good for the game and in the long run, the economy, available content and more friends to pay with. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 3:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/57 "2023-09-10T03:13:40Z")
> [@Behrenard\_Frogiter](#): > > yup, my first gank was in an above 100 million worm, and i had enough cash left to equip a new one right away. The gank had nothing to do with my motivation to stay, it just happend at a time after i found content i liked more than mission running. This was not a gank. ---
**Author:** ![Behrenard\_Frogiter](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/behrenard_frogiter/32/385835_2.png) [@Behrenard\_Frogiter](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Behrenard_Frogiter)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/58 "2023-09-10T17:50:45Z")
check the killmail. Vellaine is still borderline highsec (0.5), the ganker got concorded. The looting alt showed up when i had capsule-warped into station, my wreck was empty when i came back. ---
**Author:** ![Darius\_Dee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darius_dee/32/385560_2.png) [@Darius\_Dee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Darius_Dee)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/59 "2023-09-10T18:17:59Z")
> [@Behrenard\_Frogiter](#): > > > [@Darius\_Dee](#): > > > > Which is guided by the agent missions and sisters of eve quite nice. > > before i found out that i like abyssals, PI, and market PVP, i had one alt start the sisters epic arc. After 18 months, he still hasn’t finished it, because railroaded mission running is not what i enjoy in Eve. That you don’t like mission running doesn’t change the fact that those missions show a lot of options for beginners quite nice. Security, mining, transporting, production for example ---
**Author:** ![Darius\_Dee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darius_dee/32/385560_2.png) [@Darius\_Dee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Darius_Dee)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998/60 "2023-09-10T18:25:17Z")
> [@Behrenard\_Frogiter](#): > > I’m one of the new players you recruited. Started in february 2022, joined EDI in march, and hit the mission running boredom wall in april. Luckyly found abyssals to be more fun and less devasting for my Gallente standings (Caldari security agents always give newbs anti-Gallente missions, it sucks.) and got ganked the first time in may. > [Worm | Behrenard Frogiter | Killmail | zKillboard](https://zkillboard.com/kill/100592222/) > yup, my first gank was in an above 100 million worm, and i had enough cash left to equip a new one right away. The gank had nothing to do with my motivation to stay, it just happend at a time after i found content i liked more than mission running. > > So, i don’t think the “quitting after 2 months” is caused by ganking, i think it’s caused by boredom, because that’s the time when you really need to figure out where to leave the railroads and find your spot in the sandbox. Any other MMORPG, you need to take missions from NPCs to advance. In Eve, you at one point need to tell the NPC mission agents to go fck themselves because you found something more enjoyable for yourself. > > Sure, you’ll make ISK and you’ll advance to a more blingy ship, and you’ll get ganked. But that will only throw you off if you haven’t yet found your personal niche. Only because you don’t like mission running you think the players quit because of boredom? There are a lot of things to explore and many don’t do missions but other things. But when they earned enough money to get a better ship to do the content they like and then get ganked, a lot of them will rage quit the game. That is what Tikka experience while talking to hundreds of new players in the last 1,5 years. I took the time to talk to him in pms to get more information about the topic [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-care-about-new-players-and-you-should-too/418998.md?page=4)