# Wow, when did EVE become pay-to-win? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [May 22, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283 "2020-05-22T22:46:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ultimate\_Acer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ultimate_acer/32/168308_2.png) [@Ultimate\_Acer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ultimate_Acer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 8:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/144 "2020-08-19T08:12:33Z")
Dont know how a game where you can make your month worth “premium” time im one day playing 3h being pay to win… At the very worst it is perhaps “pay to unlock things faster that you than dont know how to properly use and still suffer” ---
**Author:** ![Dono\_Tashu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dono_tashu/32/181391_2.png) [@Dono\_Tashu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dono_Tashu)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 11:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/145 "2020-08-19T23:13:53Z")
You want to see pay to win? Take a look at EVE Echoes. Omega do 40% more damage over there. And their ships have 50% more hull, shields and armor. An Alpha cannot compete with an Omega at all. Not with so many extra skills that are omega only, and that improve your damage (and everything else) this much. EVE is harmless compared to Echoes. In EVE an Alpha is (at least in T1 Frigate and Cruiser) not this much worse than an Omega. But in Echoes an Alpha is a joke, compared to an Omega. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/146 "2020-08-20T14:48:42Z")
> [@Dono\_Tashu](#): > > You want to see pay to win? Take a look at EVE Echoes. > Omega do 40% more damage over there. And their ships have 50% more hull, shields and armor. Why didnt it happen to EVE on PC yet? They must be sleeping in office there in Iceland. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/147 "2020-08-20T14:52:38Z")
Instead of Chaos Era, 2021 will be dedicated to Make It Rain (Money). ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 3:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/148 "2020-08-20T15:25:33Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > > [@Dono\_Tashu](#): > > > > You want to see pay to win? Take a look at EVE Echoes. > > Omega do 40% more damage over there. And their ships have 50% more hull, shields and armor. > > Why didnt it happen to EVE on PC yet? They must be sleeping in office there in Iceland. My wallet is on standby, ready to be deployed the second they add this to EVE. **CAN YOU HEAR ME, PA? I WANT TO BUY MORE DAMAGE PLEASE!** ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/149 "2020-08-20T15:40:12Z")
Now available in the Eve Store: Bronze Damage Pack Silver Damage Pack Gold Damage Pack Platinum Damage Pack ---
**Author:** ![Tiger\_space\_Thedark](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tiger_space_thedark/32/373728_2.png) [@Tiger\_space\_Thedark](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tiger_space_Thedark)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 12:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/150 "2020-08-21T12:52:09Z")
Thank god i avoid that trash chinese mobile game ---
**Author:** ![Ark\_Katar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ark_katar/32/223588_2.png) [@Ark\_Katar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ark_Katar)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/151 "2020-08-21T17:59:48Z")
Always has been. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/152 "2020-08-21T18:01:05Z")
Nah. It became pay-to-win when they introduced Alpha clones. Before that it was pay-to-play. ---
**Author:** ![Succulent\_Succubi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/succulent_succubi/32/242516_2.png) [@Succulent\_Succubi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Succulent_Succubi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 1:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/153 "2020-08-22T01:31:43Z")
If you consider flying supercaps as winning the game, then sure you can get into those faster if you throw money on the table. But you dont have to. EvE is completely viable game if you fly smaller ships and those require no extra investment (theres few frikkin’ awesome ones available for alphas too if you want to become space billionare without paying CCP anything) ---
**Author:** ![Asudem](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/asudem/32/392498_2.png) [@Asudem](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Asudem)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/154 "2020-09-08T15:48:00Z")
Since there is an Alpha clone state as mentioned before. What you consider as winning is totally up to you though, but there is no doubt you can buy ingame advantages (oka Pay2Win) over others - ISK or Omega access - by throwing money at CCP. It is their business model. ---
**Author:** ![Blade\_Darth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/blade_darth/32/378598_2.png) [@Blade\_Darth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Blade_Darth)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/155 "2020-09-08T16:40:22Z")
There was plex (can convert to isk) and character bazaar (buy sp) before alpha clones and skill injectors… Eve doesn’t really feel like p2w despite the ability to buy better gear. But with the recent changes (free-to-play and daily login campaign spam) it feels like a mmo on life support… to me at least. Looks like CCP was in middle of adding lootboxes but stopped. The remnant of it are those grid-reward things where you need to open a box and click on stuff even if there is one item in it… Instead of just giving the items since it says what it is on the box anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/156 "2020-09-08T16:46:58Z")
Pay to win is a contentious term. To my shame, I played a lot of Candy Crush when it came out. There was an obvious shift in the game over time. In the beginning, it was easy to play the game for free. They introduced special perks, like extra candies and stuff, but those could all be earned in-game. Gradually, they changed how the game played - many of the later levels were not challenging - they were straight-up impossible. The only way to beat those levels was to use the special candies, but then they made it so that you could no longer earn those in game and you had to buy them. I see none of that in Eve. The idea of winning Eve is so inconceivable that the term has come to mean “permanently quitting the game.” What does it mean to get to the next level? Or to advance in general? You are either talking about PVE content, which does not require paying CCP anything more than the subscription price - or you are talking about big corporation/alliance stuff, which is \>50% social and cannot be bought anyway. Yeah, you can buy stuff from CCP. Some of the stuff is even useful (mostly it is useless vanity items). Without a way to “win” - you cannot have a “pay-to-win” ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/158 "2020-09-08T17:44:20Z")
Oh good, Lucas is back. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/159 "2020-09-08T17:44:25Z")
> [@Xeux](#): > > I played a lot of Candy Crush You are dead to me. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/160 "2020-09-08T17:45:22Z")
Noted. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy\_Bernstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/foggy_bernstein/32/407887_2.png) [@Foggy\_Bernstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Foggy_Bernstein)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/161 "2020-09-08T19:04:56Z")
If it’s any consolation, I still think you are just the bee’s knees. ---
**Author:** ![Derath\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/derath_ellecon/32/289725_2.png) [@Derath\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Derath_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/162 "2020-09-09T17:38:23Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Like if you buy some sort of premium ammo So what items in EVE can you only get via $$$? ---
**Author:** ![Derath\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/derath_ellecon/32/289725_2.png) [@Derath\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Derath_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 5:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/164 "2020-09-09T17:46:25Z")
If you are going to define P2W as anything you can spend money on then it doesn’t. But then any subscription game with a free option is P2W. Any game with any option to buy anything other than pure cosmetics is P2W. By that lens nearly all games are somewhat P2W these days. With a definition that broad, the term becomes largely meaningless. Otherwise, the more refined definition that I personally believe has a useful meaning is those things that you can ONLY gain through real $$$ means. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 5:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283/165 "2020-09-09T17:46:45Z")
I think you have a different definition of P2W there, Lucas. I’ve played games with a pay-to-skip-grind feature before. As in all games, people sometimes complained that that game was ‘pay-to-win’, but what good does paying when you’re up against someone who has grinded all the same stuff you paid for? Nothing, because the other guy likely has the experience to destroy you with equal equipment. EVE’s pay-to-win is at most on a similar level as those games: you can pay to skip playing the game. But unlike those other games, I don’t really see a clearly defined ‘win’ that you can buy. ‘Pay-to-win’ is reserved for the games where you _have_ to pay to win. The lowest of the low amongst games. Things like Xeux’ example of being unable to finish candy crush levels without premium items, or shooters with premium ‘golden ammo’. EVE may be pay-to-play and has some pay-to-skip-grind elements, but it’s far from pay-to-win. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283.md?page=7) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wow-when-did-eve-become-pay-to-win/243283.md?page=9)