# "Wreck Their Dream" Makes New Players Leave **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 20, 2021, 12:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310 "2021-10-20T12:40:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Twijn\_Sunz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/twijn_sunz/32/289865_2.png) [@Twijn\_Sunz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Twijn_Sunz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/100 "2021-10-20T15:37:16Z")
> [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > as Etch is currently pointing out to you. > > I hope it helps. It does help… why couldn’t you come up with something similar instead of telling me what I already knew? And I apologize if I hurt your feelings, I’m a harsh person and won’t apologize for it. ---
**Author:** ![Twijn\_Sunz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/twijn_sunz/32/289865_2.png) [@Twijn\_Sunz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Twijn_Sunz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/101 "2021-10-20T15:39:01Z")
> [@Kylanti\_Hendar](#): > > I don’t like guaranteed wins, they are boring Agreed. But I don’t like wasting my time with nothing to show for, that’s boring as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkikaden_tiragen/32/243913_2.png) [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mkikaden_Tiragen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/102 "2021-10-20T15:39:05Z")
I am of the opinion that the more honest the advertising is about the nature of EVE (in this case: it clearly presents EVE as a competitive game where you can destroy the hard work of other players - and logically, they too can destroy your hard work) the better for EVE - as it reduces the number of people who think EVE is a different game and leave when they find out how wrong their expectations were. As another player noted, honest advertising is bad for new player acquisition rates (because players have a clear expectation of the game, those who are averse to EVE’s actual mechanics and environment never sign up) and good for new player retention rates (more of the players who join, stay, because they already knew what they were getting in to). It has minimal effect on long term total player volume - because the players who are put off by the advertisement would have very likely quit EVE anyway when they discovered that they are not guaranteed to be the predator at all times. I’d rather CCP be honest about the game than try to make it look like it is something different and cause people to waste their time finding out the game doesn’t deliver what they are interested in. ---
**Author:** ![Twijn\_Sunz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/twijn_sunz/32/289865_2.png) [@Twijn\_Sunz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Twijn_Sunz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/103 "2021-10-20T15:40:57Z")
> [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](#): > > I’d rather CCP be honest about the game than try to make it look like it is something different and cause people to waste their time finding out the game doesn’t deliver what they are interested in That’s great. So you don’t think that CCP saying “Wreck their dream” has an adverse influence to Player Retention? ---
**Author:** ![Etch\_Masuka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/etch_masuka/32/468743_2.png) [@Etch\_Masuka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Etch_Masuka)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/104 "2021-10-20T15:41:33Z")
Eve is a harsh environment. There’s always someone out to upset the apple cart. But that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Loses mean something which means there are always stakes. Which means decisions matter. That’s the biggest appeal for me. For someone that wants to do industry you biggest risk will probably be moving your goods from where you make to where you sell. For new players it’s often tempting to do that move yourself……… but that’s risk. Much better to pay someone to move it for you. Set proper collateral and then even if the goods are lost in transit you don’t lose out. It comes at a cost……. But it stops someone ruining YOUR game. In short. There are risks everywhere but as you learn the game, those risks can be managed and be tolerable. ---
**Author:** ![Twijn\_Sunz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/twijn_sunz/32/289865_2.png) [@Twijn\_Sunz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Twijn_Sunz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/105 "2021-10-20T15:42:59Z")
> [@Etch\_Masuka](#): > > In short. There are risks everywhere but as you learn the came those risks can be managed and be tolerable So you don’t think that has adverse effects on Player Retention or you do think it has and “OH Well” ? ---
**Author:** ![Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkikaden_tiragen/32/243913_2.png) [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mkikaden_Tiragen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/106 "2021-10-20T15:44:36Z")
I think you are conflating player attraction (getting people to try the game) and player retention (players who have tried the game deciding to stick around). Honest advertising, like ‘wreck their dreams’, decreases attraction of players who would be unlikely to thrive in EVE. It has no impact on retention of players, because it’s an advertisement - nobody stays in the game because of the advertising CCP is doing. However, because the advertisement **discouraged** a subset of players, those players are no longer joining only to immediately leave when they learn EVE is a harsh dog-eat-dog world, so retention rates are higher than they would be if those players had not been dissuaded by the honest advertisement. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/107 "2021-10-20T15:46:27Z")
> [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](#): > > I’d rather CCP be honest about the game than try to make it look like it is something different and cause people to waste their time finding out the game doesn’t deliver what they are interested in. Agree. The worst dishonesty they’ve done of late is the reversal from “SP means practically nothing” to “SP is everything”. Because…well… there’s money to made. Worse still are all the CCP simps that spent years telling newbs not to whine about having less SP than them have now fallen right in line with the new narrative. “Just buy SP little newbies”, they’re now preaching. “You’ll be just like us vets”. SMH Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Twijn\_Sunz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/twijn_sunz/32/289865_2.png) [@Twijn\_Sunz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Twijn_Sunz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/108 "2021-10-20T15:47:36Z")
> [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](#): > > so retention rates are higher than they would be if those players had not been dissuaded by the honest advertisement So is it fair to say that because CCP advertises honestly that leads to player numbers being as low as they are nowadays? Low numbers of players that may stick to the game…? Are you saying that low player numbers is ok with CCP? ---
**Author:** ![Twijn\_Sunz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/twijn_sunz/32/289865_2.png) [@Twijn\_Sunz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Twijn_Sunz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/109 "2021-10-20T15:48:28Z")
> [@Mr\_Epeen](#): > > Worse still are all the CCP simps Agreed… and the CSM simps too. ---
**Author:** ![Etch\_Masuka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/etch_masuka/32/468743_2.png) [@Etch\_Masuka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Etch_Masuka)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/110 "2021-10-20T15:48:43Z")
It undoubtedly effects player retention. But not as directly as you think. CCP have said a few times that players that lose a ship early on are MORE LIKELY to engage more with the game. There isn’t really any publicallly available evidence of that though. But I can see how that sets expectations early and therefore the player is less likely to be surprised moving forward. Where I think the problem lies is players who have been in game a few months and for various reasons have had no hassle from any other players. As a result they start bling fitting ships and assuming they are safe and assume that’s the status quo. So when they do get blown up the feeling of loss is much greater and we get the rage quit. You however already have an advantage. You already know it’s dangerous . So you can plan accordingly. It’s easy to thrive in eve if you understand the threat and take action to avoid it ---
**Author:** ![Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkikaden_tiragen/32/243913_2.png) [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mkikaden_Tiragen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/111 "2021-10-20T15:49:37Z")
You are twisting my words. That’s rude. I said that retention rate of players is higher when advertising is honest, because the players who join have realistic expectations of what EVE is. When player expectations and experience align, players remain in the game. **You have repeatedly stated that you are only covering new players here** , so I will not remark on veteran player retention as that is off-topic per your own posts. ---
**Author:** ![Twijn\_Sunz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/twijn_sunz/32/289865_2.png) [@Twijn\_Sunz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Twijn_Sunz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/112 "2021-10-20T15:54:53Z")
> [@Etch\_Masuka](#): > > It undoubtedly effects player retention. But not as directly as you think. F me… someone who thinks on this forum! Breath of fresh air. > [@Etch\_Masuka](#): > > CCP have said a few times that players that lose a ship early on are MORE LIKELY to engage more with the game I seriously doubt that but I have no numbers to show it > [@Etch\_Masuka](#): > > There isn’t really any publicallly available evidence of that though What d’ya know, they have no numbers either, lol > [@Etch\_Masuka](#): > > But I can see how that sets expectations early and therefore the player is less likely to be surprised moving forward No surprise and, most importantly, no illusions. > [@Etch\_Masuka](#): > > Where I think the problem lies is players who have been in game a few months and for various reasons have had no hassle from any other players. As a result they start bling fitting ships and assuming they are safe and assume that’s the status quo. So when they do get blown up the feeling of loss is much greater and we get the rage quit I understand that, unfortunately, ship loss and loss of players is beyond the preview of this thread. > [@Etch\_Masuka](#): > > You however already have an advantage. You already know it’s dangerous . So you can plan accordingly. > > It’s easy to thrive in eve if you understand the threat and take action to avoid it Yes. What I’m saying is, it doesn’t make me want to play, knowing that all efforts = someone who will “Wreck” ly dream, that kind of sh!tty to me. ---
**Author:** ![Etch\_Masuka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/etch_masuka/32/468743_2.png) [@Etch\_Masuka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Etch_Masuka)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/113 "2021-10-20T15:54:56Z")
As a “new player” you seem particularly aggrieved at the CSM. What’s that about? ---
**Author:** ![Twijn\_Sunz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/twijn_sunz/32/289865_2.png) [@Twijn\_Sunz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Twijn_Sunz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/114 "2021-10-20T15:55:50Z")
> [@Etch\_Masuka](#): > > As a “new player” you seem particularly aggrieved at the CSM. What’s that about? No need to be a vet to be aware of how crappy the CSM is, I can read and I do it a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Twijn\_Sunz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/twijn_sunz/32/289865_2.png) [@Twijn\_Sunz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Twijn_Sunz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/115 "2021-10-20T15:57:46Z")
> [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](#): > > You are twisting my words. That’s rude. O, didn’t mean to. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Twijn\_Sunz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/twijn_sunz/32/289865_2.png) [@Twijn\_Sunz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Twijn_Sunz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/116 "2021-10-20T16:00:02Z")
> [@Etch\_Masuka](#): > > “new player” Putting that in quotes says I’m not a new player… that’s suggesting I’m lying. FYI I don’t appreciate being called a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkikaden_tiragen/32/243913_2.png) [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mkikaden_Tiragen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/117 "2021-10-20T16:00:03Z")
> [@Twijn\_Sunz](#): > > Yes. What I’m saying is, it doesn’t make me want to play, knowing that all efforts = someone who will “Wreck” ly dream, that kind of sh!tty to me. And that’s my point. If CCP is honest about the game up front, you can decide _without having to play_ if that is something you are OK with risking. If you are not, then you save yourself time and stress trying the game only to learn that it has gameplay you do not care for. I feel CCP has moved away from honest advertising and is trying to appeal to a wider audience in an effort to up their new player _acquisition_ numbers, without caring about new player _retention_ numbers. ‘Hiding’ the nature of EVE is only going to end with frustration on the part of the players who wouldn’t have joined EVE in the first place had CCP used honest advertising - but I suspect all CCP cares about is geting a portion of those players to spend money before they learn their expectations are out of sync with the reality of EVE. ---
**Author:** ![Twijn\_Sunz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/twijn_sunz/32/289865_2.png) [@Twijn\_Sunz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Twijn_Sunz)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 4:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/118 "2021-10-20T16:01:20Z")
> [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](#): > > And that’s my point. If CCP is honest about the game up front, you can decide _without having to play_ if that is something you are OK with risking. If you are not, then you save yourself time and stress trying the game only to learn that it has gameplay you do not care for So do you or do you not agree that it hurts Player Retention? ---
**Author:** ![Etch\_Masuka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/etch_masuka/32/468743_2.png) [@Etch\_Masuka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Etch_Masuka)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2021, 4:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310/119 "2021-10-20T16:01:44Z")
> [@Twijn\_Sunz](#): > > What d’ya know, they have no numbers either, lol There is a big difference between not publishing numbers and not having numbers. CCP have the data and make decisions about the game accordingly. We can only speculate based on what limited information we are given. > [@Twijn\_Sunz](#): > > Yes. What I’m saying is, it doesn’t make me want to play, knowing that all efforts = someone who will “Wreck” ly dream, that kind of sh!tty to me I don’t think the collective wisdom of the forum is going to change your mind about the game. You will either want to play or you won’t. It’s your decision. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wreck-their-dream-makes-new-players-leave/333310.md?page=6)