So bare minimum is ~50 people spread across all time zones per system owned (I’m assuming an average play time of 2-3 hours per day) and that’s assuming people are taking shifts to ensure that kind of coverage and are doing it every day.
Yeah don’t worry I undestood how you meant it when you said “solo”, hence my “stretching the definition” comment.
Yup, my point of view as well. If you can’t carry your own weight, you’re going to have to look for a new home. I too left nullsec because of this several times. Realized I wanted to do other things in my playtime than going on fleets, so I left because I wasn’t really contributing.
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That sounds about right for the smaller size to get by in null.
The “hunters” use all of the same mechanics to (a) find prey and (b) avoid being blobbed.
This is one of the worst misdirections I’ve seen you do in this thread. Not only did I not write this, I put a valid argument up, that you have replaced with dracs post, imo to just avoid arguing it.
I’ll repeat it for you, people that practice avoidance use structures to hide in, and those structures are captureable or removable.
Perhaps you should address my posts in replies to me, and dracs posts in replies to drac, and definately you should not replace my arguments with dracs.
You’ve still failed to explain why personal avoidance via personal vigilance is unreasonable, you’ve just blobbed down an argument on dracs post instead of answering.
I’ve got ample examples in my longer term posting history of wanting new group content for nullsec. There is absolutely no requirement for local to be removed to add new content. The two things are not connected, and also its pretty obvious that adding more preconditions to adding new content would actually just make it more work to add new content, which is conducive to not getting new content added.
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Local favors the hunted, not the hunters. By the time a hunter is in system, the hunted is in warp to their safe.
I didn’t replace your post with Drac’s, I hit reply to you, replied to it and then copied Drac’s in below.
There isn’t any requirements for local to be removed to have more content. That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t help. More content also isn’t my only goal here. Better content is a more accurate way to put it, and fixing the problem of how easy null PvE has become is another goal.
We’ve gotten off this point, but when this conversation first started, I was calling for local to be tied to a structure that a sov holder can place. If the sov holder places the structure, everyone in system gets local. If the structure is taken out, or is never placed in that system, no one in that system gets local chat.
EDIT: Just went up and re-read, I hit reply to you but forgot to copy your original post in. That was my fault, didn’t mean to be misleading.
Which is why the adm system exists, you can easily camp a system down to be far more vulnerable if the owners won’t play. Just spent a week maintaining our military at 5 against a camper without feeding him a kill, which included ratting in an aligned thorax whilst his alt moved about trying to tackle me.
Thats a massive downgrade to syndicate and other NPC null spaces.
A particularly pointless object in sov null because its going to be ubiquitous, its busy work to put it in, (between citadels, pocos, ihubs etc there is ample things to install already) and its yet another structure, and structures are a thing that CCP has not found a good balance for right at this moment.
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Exactly. Any suggested changes have zero impact on sov null and large alliances except for creating a little extra busy work. And disproportionately affects smaller organizations.
Even if you have 100+ pilots. It’s unlikely you will have more than 20-30 online. Even assuming that every one of them can fly a capital and has one fitted for pvp, that’s not enough to out escalate larger groups.
Even if they leave local in npc null and remove it for sov. All it will do is push smaller groups onto npc space and sov will have full coverage with the structures anyways. Resulting in a net negative change except for a little extra leg work. And making it even harder for small groups to grow.
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ADM doesn’t do anything for people, it just makes structure grinding annoying. ADM doesn’t make it less impossible to catch that ratter or miner who is watching local chat for non-blues.
Then why not let it happen, if you think it won’t make a difference? CCP’s been talking about observatory arrays for a while now. A good balance is you lose local, but gain the ability to scan down cloaked ships. You can’t nerf local without doing something to cloaking, and you can’t nerf cloaking (well, AFK cloaking, since sov null is the only place that complains about cloaks) without nerfing local.
Make the structure that gains/loses local easy to take out, but easier to put up as well, read, a single cloaked hunter could disable it in 10 minutes or so. Something ubiquitous that’s a point for conflict is a good thing, especially when having it up/down is easy, and gives a decent advantage to the hunter (cloaks, as they have it now) or the hunted (local, as they have it now) Being able to take local down for even 10 minutes to quickly stage an attack changes the dynamics of null in a good way.
This is pretty incorrect. A very big chunk of the large alliances would leave null, given how many of them are out there only for the easy ISK, and not actually to fight. The numbers of people in null would drop, and less systems would be held overall, opening more for smaller groups.
You obviously aren’t going to replace massive alliances with small groups in sov null, and that’s by design. Only 15% of players live in sov null. It’s a small part of the game intended for empire building, if you want to be in a small group, go to LS, HS, WHs, or band together with other smaller corps to give null a shot. If that alliance in null drops its guard, that cloaked ship should be able to disable local chat and open up the defenses. If that group is actually watching every system like they should, it’s a non-issue.
Large groups have dozens of systems that aren’t used. The realistic result of my suggestion? Those systems would be attacked, local disabled and larger alliances would spend more and more time chasing smaller groups around trying to defend those out of the way systems. They would then complain to CCP as they always do instead of adjusting playstyle, or realizing they have more systems than they can defend.
I guess I have less faith that those groups are actually watching all their systems as closely as others think they are.
You keep saying it’s “impossible” to catch a rater or miner. And yet we have ratcaps and rorquals getting caught every day. (7 rorquals and 8 orcas today) just because YOU aren’t catching them doesn’t mean no one is.
Yes, paying attention to local vastly increases your chances of escape. And being in the standing fleet increases response times. But it’s hardly perfect protection.
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As I’ve said every other post, I never claimed to be a PvPer. Please follow the conversation before replying. I spend all my time doing PvE in null and WHs, and never really die doing it.
Watch local, stay aligned to a safe spot, and have a cloak on your PvE ship (yes, the PvE-ers can use cloaks too!) and you won’t die. The only way to catch someone ratting or mining in null is if they aren’t watching local, or get greedy/stupid and don’t warp out when they see local flash that evil grey or red color.
Back when I was a young’in and did PvP, by far the reason you catch people in null (and the reason corpmates died in null during the years I lived there) is because they are talking/watching netflix/getting high/not playing the game/etc. Anyone watching the screen when undocked or decloaked won’t really get caught.
Two examples from where I live:
Allmost nobody counters Waffles, because they tend to drop just loads of capitals on you, to a point you just can´t handle that anymore.
And than that group of hotdroppers, that sometimes bridge via a BLOPS and a covert cyno on a spy a Tengu and thats that. Allmost no reactiontime to that. They also tend to drop just more BLOPS on you, if you try and counter that. Roamingfleets are mostly not that of a problem, because you see them coming. WHs are not a problem either. Hotdroppers are. And they make heavy use of local too.
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Indeed, the only way local could ever be removed is if hotdropping was completely removed. I’d be more than happy to see hotdropping removed from the game.
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Ratters and miners require ihubs for a continual supply of anomolies, ihubs require sov to function. The fundamental issue with your argument is you simaltaneously acknowledge that null is for groups that deal with sovereign objects, yet fail to recognize that the sov tools are there to force people to fight or leave.
What part of its a massive downgrade to npc null do you not understand ?
in any case because its pointless if its going to be up anywhere people are ratting. unless it was going to be down most of the time, its just busy work complexity and a bug source.
I live in null, I’ve literally had a 20 hour a day camper in our system, ie putting pressure on people that way works. if one person can put pressure on with 1 alt, then I can’t see why actual organisations with many alts can’t do so, and you yourself keep making the argument that null is for organisations and empire building, in which case fielding overt local superiority is not a problem.
I wanted to imagine something more tedious than mining, and presto, it appears. What do you think the risk averse player is going to do when you start shooting the local structure, lol.
Its no different from when they shoot my mtus, or an ESS, or someone starts wanding. Its not necessary to have yet another one.
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You keep harping on about this point as if it matters. It is simply not a problem if someone who is paying attention escapes. It never has been and never will be.
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@Sonya_Corvinus said:
- small groups should get out of 0.0 space if they cannot hold their space or defend their ratters
- small groups should have easier time to live in 0.0 space when local is no more and bigger groups stop caring about holding space
Take your pick i guess 
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There is your issue right there, I don’t warp out every time a non-blue enters system.
For the other posters who have jumped in here.
You have done an excellent job at pointing out the issue.
One person linked hot drops to local, I for one would accept no local if hot dropping was not possible, but a lot of people in my alliance would be very upset. The current balance is good with the only issue around the AFK part of cloaky camping.
The OA to give local is coming however from what I understand the NPC 0.0 systems would have local supplied by the NPC sov holders just like hisec and low sec. I am in favour of the OA in terms of local because I do not believe that any intel should be free and that data that goes on the map needs to go too.
My alliance has TZ superiority and that is something very precious and really helps us. Most of the time I have been in 0.0 I did not have that so it has been good fun.
Keep making your points, it is good to see more and more sensible people join this debate because it needs it.
This whole discussion is an example of ideology over reality.
-It doesn’t matter in the least that the idea would screw up many players enjoyment of the game (players who are enjoying the game in the most dangerous way possible by playing in open sites anyone can warp to).
-It doesn’t matter that it would not even add the benefit of additional conflict and destruction thus helping the game be more fun for more people overall (which is the ONLY reason for ANY developer to ever make a change to a game)
-It doesn’t even matter that all the rest of us can see clearly that it would backfire by making the game even less fun for everyone. Hunters with fewer targets, people ratting in disposable VNIs instead of ships that are actually worthy targets, people grouping into Super-cap capbable defensive blobs and planting cynos on every non-VNI ratting ship.
Not because that makes sense but because that’s how you use isolation and jump fatigue to create unassailable local superiority.
And all for what, because some people who don’t even live in null think null is too easy? So you destroy the ENGINE NEW EDEN RUNS ON by making it a place fewer people live in? The destruction in null sec drives the EVE economy (CCP should do another destruction dev blog, the last one showed how even though more stuff explodes in high sec, it’s mostly cheap pve ships, the ships that require real effort and wealth to build explode in null and low sec).
At the risk of not being polite, it has to be said, no local anywhere in k-space with the current mechanics are a stupid idea. Unless you want to put gates on anomalies (which gives you a chance to see incoming on d-scan and place DE-cloaking cans on warp ins). How many times does CCP have to repeat the blue donut and anomalies nerf mistakes before people stop asking them to make stupid mistakes?
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- Perhaps it’s not ‘too easy’ to live in null for ratters and miners but too hard for you to find and engage in content going after pvers in null.
- There is plenty of destruction in null, I refer you to the killboards.
- There is a simple, lore based reason for local in null: stargates. What does WH space not have? Stargates. So what likely monitors and reports who is entering a system for all persons in system to see? Stargates. And who should benefit, if anyone, from such things? Those holding sovereignty. And what about NPC space? Same as any other NPC space, such as all of hisec.*
I may be new, and I won’t say I am an avid pvper, but I am in a nullsec alliance and coalition that are very pvp oriented and I can say, there is content and you can catch many of the most vigilant pver’s with their pants down.
Null is all about intel. You get rid of local, you won’t necessarily have an easier time getting kills(which is what this is really about). You’ll have people spamming dscan and using the ■■■■ out of private intel channels. People would simply have alts sit cloaked on gates to see who comes and goes and report on it in their intel channels.
This is no solution to your perception of a market gone awry. The solution, for you, is to either get better than most of the pvers you seem to have trouble pointing and popping, or start engaging with others looking for pvp content.
But, truthfully, the market is nearly entirely the result of the players, as a whole. It’s working just fine. You just aren’t adapting to the everchanging nature of it in response to the everchanging nature of the alliances, corps, and players. That’s not CCP’s problem. That’s yours.
*Though I could almost see an argument for no local in unclaimed space, if only because there is no entity owned infrastructure there to send out the intel from the gates.
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Point given
Literally carrier/super carrier or bust on this. Anything else will get out of range in no time. Remember, aligned mean at least at 75% speed.
Someone entered local! Quick, let’s clear that wave so I can cloak! Any other cloak usage beside directly inside of a site would require a warp which mean you might as well warp to a damn ass-house and not need the cloak.
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