Off-Topic Thread

(Aria Jenneth) #27

Just so.

There’s a lot you can derive from just a couple of reflections:

“Even if I’m an illusion, I can still suffer.”

“Suffering is unpleasant. I don’t want to suffer.”

(Arrendis) #28

Well, the problem with using ‘illusions’ as a follow-up is, of course, that if nothing has meaning, then illusions, being something, are already covered.

(Aria Jenneth) #29

No … it just means shifting the bar on what you consider significant.

If you set it high, you need stuff like a great war between good and evil, or an omnipotent god (this is where people normally are when they talk about cosmic meaning). If you set it low, every sincere feeling attains titanic importance, and the world becomes a labyrinth of subjective purpose.

If we’re looking for meaning that we can agree on, why not start looking at the level where things begin to seem important and acquire significance? Subjective things, but stuff nearly everyone has in common.

Hence, “suffering.”

(Arrendis) #30

Well, that’s a different question though, Aria: ‘what’s a meaning we can agree on?’

(Aria Jenneth) #31

It’s the same question, though. To put it differently: “What’s real enough that we’d be crazy to act like it doesn’t matter?”

(One thing that gets a little troublesome when talking about this stuff is that there’s a certain point at which words don’t work so well anymore. “Illusion” can mean something to you, and something subtly different to me, but it’s still the same word. When I say I’m an illusion, I don’t quite mean that there’s nothing here-- I mean that I, the way I think of myself and the way you think of me, am not “real.” But something kind of is; it’s just hard to draw a non-arbitrary border around it and say “this side is Aria” and “this side is not Aria.” But that’s probably not what you think of when I say “illusion.”

(Words are symbolic representation, so, eventually, they depend on what’s attached to those symbols in our minds matching. And the more precise the match needs to be in order to communicate effectively, the harder it is. We can solve this partially with specialized jargon, but if our topic is something that symbolic representation cannot point to, like reality in the complete absence of symbols? That gets really hard. That’s where we start having to talk in riddles of the kind that’ll give almost anybody a headache.)

(Jason Galente) #32

"I still think I’m sort of a nihilist, because I believe nothing has meaning, thus/yet I don’t believe in nothing."

This sentence doesn’t make syntactical sense. Either you believe nothing has meaning, or you believe in something. Not believing in nothing is roughly equivalent to believing in something.

Is there a meaning of ‘believing in nothing’ that escapes this dichotomy? I’m not aware of one.

(Aria Jenneth) #33

This is a reflection you could probably stand to contemplate, along with its implications, at length, Ms. Tsukiyo. It’s basically everything you’ve been missing up to now.

(Morgana Tsukiyo) #34

Not when you know that a dream, “good” or “bad”, is just a dream.

(Jason Galente) #35

Then you’ve just invalidated your own point. You have no cohesive viewpoints, you’re just making this up as you go, without regard to what you may have said or thought yesterday. Most people do that sort of thing quietly.

(Morgana Tsukiyo) #36

And how was that done?

(Jason Galente) #37

By thinking.

(Morgana Tsukiyo) #38

It´s not that hard.

This is all a dream.

There´s plenty to be done in the dream. Either something manifests itself into existence, or it doesn´t.

People like to define and give names to stuff, like “good”, “bad”, “right” and wrong. Yjey also think that they are separate from the whole and are some sort of “unit” or “individual”

Within the dream, some have “good” dreams, some have “bad” dreams. Some people do “right” stuff, some people do “wrong” stuff. Those concepts are very ephemeral and individualistic, the same manifestation can be interpreted in different ways depending on the observer.

In the middle of so many concepts, definitions, words and things, people in general tend to create context to interact with. So they set objectives, values and several abstract constructs to guide their interactions.

Then they forget those are made up and start to think them as “truth”. Lot´s of people join concept A faction, others join concept B ranks and so on. Lot´s of interaction to be achieved within these parameters.

They entrench themselves within the borders of the parameters of the context they created themselves in the form of concepts that are only held together by the “individual” and their collective.

People tend to dislike the absence of context.

People fight a lot because of context.

But in the end, it is only a dream that one can awake from.

Some work to do so. Some don´t.

It doesn´t matter anyway.

(Aria Jenneth) #39

You’re right that it’s not hard. What you’ve got here is the easy part.

You’ve stopped on the first mountaintop you came to to admire the view … and never mind that there’s no food or water, and the air’s pretty thin, and you’re wasting away and encouraging others to do the same. Eventually your desiccated corpse might be a kind of landmark, since not even carrion crows come so high.

If you’re fortunate, you’ll be alone up there. If not, you’ll have been persuasive enough to have company.

There’s so much further to go, so much more to see. So much that would nourish and sustain, and so many other ways of seeing.

From that height, though, the view’s definitely amazing. It’s an important landmark, but …

… it really is just the first marker, you know?

(Morgana Tsukiyo) #40

There is the tale about the Monkey King that is very interesting on this matter.

Jump as far as you want, nourish as much as you want, sustain as much as you want, see as you want.

Once you realize you never left, you´ll see the futility in all this.

And again, never said you couldn´t have fun on the way.

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(Aria Jenneth) #41

We’re neither of us the enlightened one in that story, Morgana Tsukiyo. I haven’t attained such a state, and don’t pretend otherwise.

You … do so pretend. To yourself, as well, seemingly.

A couple further observations:

Folktales are for folk-- lay-practitioners, to whom gods and spirits are a great comfort, and anything closer to insight quickly becomes “talking like a monk.” Their applicability further along tends to be limited. They’re fun, though.

Maybe your own Teacher did not explain this clearly, but you neither gain nor demonstrate understanding by quoting doctrine-- and consequently, among Seekers, it’s considered bad form bordering on taboo. (There are a couple traditionally-cited riddles that work as they do for this very reason: “Is a shark part of the Totality?” Of course it is; everything is, but that’s not an answer you can give to another Seeker.)

If you want to tell me stories, make your own.

(Morgana Tsukiyo) #42

Oh you.

The teachers i had i killed already. Their corpses are landmarks that indicated part of my way, like my own will in the future for those who wish to travel and go further.

I like analogies, i think they can helpful. By no means should be considered doctrine.

But as you said, you still have your way to go, go see and nourish and sustain and all that. Have your happy dream.

Who am i to change you or anyone?

It´s a lonely path, one that must be experienced in order to integrate.

(Che Biko) #43

Monsieur, it is your sentence which does not make sense. Let me demonstrate:
“I believe [this], thus/yet I don’t believe in nothing.” is what I wrote.
“Either you believe [this], or you believe in something.” is what you wrote.
I guess I maybe shouldn’t have used the word “yet” in there, as this repeats the same paradox you made, but I did so on purpose in reference to your statement that nihilists are believers of/in nothing.

To quote a friend of mine, I am…

(Che Biko) #44

@Raxi_Elamp Yes.

(Valerie Valate) #45

@Jason_Galente don’t be rude.

(Ria Nieyli) #46

Tell that to Verin so I can dye my hair red again.