Capsule Subsystem Holostorage EH-CN-J44-003

[Synthetic_Cultist]

The Righteous do the Right thing when No One, not even God, is Looking.

[Remilia_Malitia]

@Amicia_Cora

There is a lot of conjecture passed around that the invasions are over, that the Collective is not still an immediate and existential security threat. Let us be clear about this: we have no understanding at present as to whether the invasions have ceased permanently or merely paused for an unspecified amount of time.

Which is exactly why the issues highlighted during the invasions of YC122 and alluded to by this latest leak need to be addressed. Or do you suggest that we should maintain the status quo that utterly failed the State, all while demanding further funding? The Corporate Security Forces outperformed EDENCOM in State systems, consistently. Would it be unreasonable to think that maybe further association with EDENCOM, it its current incarnation, would be detrimental to our defense?

@Amicia_Cora

What little we do know is that the combined efforts of all of our nations failed twenty-seven times to repel their invasions and have made a grand-total of zero offensive inroads in the Collective’s home space. We don’t even know if we can hit their home space. Such a level of asymmetry and one-sided threat is immensely dangerous for us. We cannot afford to underestimate it in the slightest.

And to be clear, there are elite navy forces from all Empires, State included, fighting and dying every single day against the Collective in Pochven for that very reason.

You say that as if it is something admirable.
The continued loss of life and materiel alike is horrifying.
It is imperative that we reconsider our stance, hopefully seeking out a peaceful resolution to this conflict. I do not know about you, but I am not terribly fond of throwing loyal men and women into a meatgrinder without any attainable strategic objectives in mind.

@Amicia_Cora

EDENCOM is not something to be discussed in past tense. It is here and now, and it won’t be going anywhere for a long time. If it does, we may no longer even have our beloved nations to return to anymore. I don’t think any of us can afford to risk that, and so none of us can afford to undermine its efforts.

As mentioned ad nauseum, EDENCOM failed us. Our own Corporate forces were better. EDENCOM, as it is now, should be torn down. Either restructure it into an actually effective organization, one led by a level-headed and impartial officer, or do away with the entire concept and use the funding to reinforce national defenses.

[Aria_Jenneth]

The CONCORD entity that takes your advice on defense policy deserves its fate, Malitia-hnolku.

What “failed us” was the capsuleer class. Your traitorous self very much included. Had we stood together, nothing need have been lost.

To. Your. Masters.

Traitor.

[Remilia_Malitia]

I advise you refrain from speaking on subjects you know so little about, all for the sake of hollow antagonization. It reflects poorly upon both yourself and your associates.

The issues with EDENCOM run deep and need to be addressed. A well organized defense would not fall from the minor contributions of a handful of capsule pilots. The outcomes of the invasions speak for themselves, especially those of systems where independent capsuleers did not participate.

[Arrendis]

@Remilia_Malitia

As mentioned ad nauseum, EDENCOM failed us. Our own Corporate forces were better.

Except, of course, that the ‘EDENCOM’ forces in the State were Caldari Navy forces, organized according to Caldari Navy doctrines and run by Caldari Navy officers.

So did EDENCOM fail the State, or did the State fail EDENCOM?

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

Well obviously, Amicia Cora, circumstances are not static. If they were, why would policies need to change in the first place?

I think what you’re missing, maybe, is that you think the goal of Midular’s government, and by extension that of mine, was peace.

[Remilia_Malitia]

Ah yes, well known Caldari Navy doctrines such as Raptors fit with dual light pulse lasers, and an utter lack of any hybrid weapons systems.

There is a reason the Megacorporations are blaming EDENCOM and there is a reason that our Honorable Chairman, who personally fought against the Triglavians, saw fit to instruct our Inner Circle delegation to vote for reducing EDENCOM’s funding once already.

[Arrendis]

@Remilia_Malitia

Ah yes, well known Caldari Navy doctrines such as Raptors fit with dual light pulse lasers, and an utter lack of any hybrid weapons systems.

Not so well known, perhaps, but all of the vessels assigned to EDENCOM were from the various navies, and EDENCOM doesn’t appear to have refit anyone else’s ships. Nor did they really have the time to refit every one of hundreds of ships assigned to them by the Caldari Navy.

Which means the State, which is well-known for not trusting outsiders and not wanting to show their best toys to outsiders, didn’t send their front-line assets to EDENCOM, but probably garrison or even training vessels, second- or third-line, likely long-obsolete doctrines, staffed by people the megas wouldn’t miss.

But I’m sure you’ll argue that it makes more sense to believe that an Amarr-biased EDENCOM singled out the State—the Empire’s ally—for a level of malicious, active sabotage they didn’t display toward any of the other powers, including the Republic, expending time and effort, manpower, money, and materiel, all to undermine their own efforts, than that an insular, xenophobic State withheld their most capable and effective assets for themselves, and only committed lesser, more expendable forces to the command of foreigners.

@Remilia_Malitia

There is a reason the Megacorporations are blaming EDENCOM and there is a reason that our Honorable Chairman, who personally fought against the Triglavians, saw fit to instruct our Inner Circle delegation to vote for reducing EDENCOM’s funding once already.

Yeah, it’s called ‘CYA’: Cover Your Ass. Any politician who can get into a position of authority knows that the very first thing they should do when any crisis goes badly… is find someone to blame. And the second is ‘blame them, loudly’.

[Valerie_Valate]

This is why there should be a mandatory uniform for politicians of assless chaps.

That way, it’s obvious to even the most casual observer, whether the politician is doing anything constructive, or merely covering their ass.

Also means that if a voter is unhappy with their elected representatives, they can use an implement such as a rug beater, and give them a damn good thrashing.

[Henrik_Suzaku]

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply, Amicia. You know that my own skepticism is not rooted in the ancient Empire, only in specific elements. Certainly not in the noble paragons of Khimi Harar whose comradeship I treasure.

It is mainly directed at the tyrants of the Federation, who would only use political unity as a tool to puppet us. It is a game they play extremely well. It would be a union that could only leave the State sliding back into subjugation, mob rule and degeneracy after a hundred years of war and the blood of generations spent to preserve our way of life.

There is also a point to be made that the differences between the Empire and Republic are far too serious to be resolved by a mere mingling, and that to call for unity before these fundamental differences are resolved is to ‘make the jump before the call’.

My use of the past tense in reference to EDENCOM was deliberate, though I am aware of some continuing efforts. If EDENCOM wishes to justify the present tense, it needs a victory. To justify the future tense, it will need a plan.

If it wants to continue receiving its remaining support, it should also address these concerns openly and honestly. There must be a full investigation into this scandal.

[Gosakumori_Noh]

@Valerie_Valate

This is why there should be a mandatory uniform for politicians of assless chaps.

I would add this to my platform, darling, but the Federation seems to have already moved beyond assless chaps to chapless chaps, if you know what I mean.

Yes, I concede it is difficult for me to take “I heard from Jimmy that, according to Billy, Judy said the Amarr are meanie poopoo heads” seriously. Really now, Judy. What gave the religious fanatic slaver empire away?

Still…

Given that the police function of CONCORD clearly must be devolved to respective national security agencies, it does follow that EDENCOM should also be devolved.

[Cain_Aloga]

@Amicia_Cora

A hostile outside force invades our cluster, committing horrific crimes against our peoples and undermining the institutions of international order

You just described the Amarr Empire.

Regarding EDENCOM, Now that the Invasions are currently over, EDENCOME and Edencom aligned organizations should transfer control and ownership of all established infrastructure to the Empire in which that Infrastructure exists, and EDENCOM itself should be disbanded.

[Miran_Tereven]

@Arrendis

staffed by people the megas wouldn’t miss.

To my knowledge there is no tube child programme in place to replace Caldari Navy Crews with Arrendis clones.

[Arrendis]

Fortunately, the recent labor demonstrations show that the State has an abundance of citizens the megacorporate executives would be just as happy to see dead.

[Lauralite_Anne_Brezia]

@Amicia_Cora

no such international norms or institutions existed during the days of first contact, and thus the comparison falls flat

I think, perhaps, the point raised is more that viewing Collective as some form of Outside Context Problem existential threat doesn’t really work, in that similar scenarios have played out, over and over and over again in human history, and downplaying that they have by raising that international norms for that didn’t exist previously, particularly to those affected by it quite viscerally, is probably not particularly wise

Note, mind, that this is not a justification of the Invasions, but more me trying to highlight something you may have, perhaps unintentionally, overlooked considering the anagonistic relationship you have with those like Mr. Aloga.

And, unfortunately, I am under no illusions that, should my own people have been within easy reach of the Empire, they would be the target of a violent attempt at reclamation and subjugation, and in fact many amarr I have spoken to have confirmed this outright, being outside the normal diplomatic realm of the CONCORD treaties my people are not openly recognized as protected by those international agreements. And the only reason they have not been put to that particular torch, has been due to the resources to do so being better put elsewhere, and ultimately(to our great benefit), limited range of projected power.

[Arrendis]

@Amicia_Cora

Faith is one of the most pure things a person can possess. It is hope, trust, and conviction all at the same time.

No, it’s not. It’s assumption, denial, and demanding. Faith insists things must be the way you want them, no matter the evidence, no matter what suffering that justifies—billions must be enslaved, abused (physically, emotionally, and sexually), have their very identities stripped away and all knowledge of their ancestors ripped from them, for generation after generation? Why, that’d be terrible if we did it to you, but when you do it, it’s ok because God said so.

That’s ‘faith’. That kind of myopic, ‘ok for me but not for thee’ self-centeredness is the end result of all faith. Because faith denies evidence, and demands acceptance.

Hope, trust, and conviction are wonderful things. Hope is aspirational, where faith is compliant. Trust built on evidence, on knowledge, is one of the strongest bonds there is. And conviction… conviction is just the willingness to act on that trust, to be steadfast and worthy of it in return.

None of those things require ‘faith’. Faith is simply the narcotic those in power keep you hooked on, to ensure you will be their biddable tool. There’s a reason so many faiths revolve around ideas like your ‘Paradise’, why so many depend on there being a reward at the end of this life. Because faith itself is a corruption of those things you claim it encompasses, and so it encourages corruption, it encourages transactional virtue.

‘I’ll be good so I get the reward’ is not virtue. It is avarice. It is being paid off. It is grift.

And it is what you cite in the exhortation of ‘faith’ you call your ‘Paladin’s Code’.

@Amicia_Cora

They are wrong for several reasons, but perhaps none more so than the fact that the CONCORD-aligned nations of New Eden today fight for something that simply did not exist during the days of first contact between the Amarr and Minmatar peoples: a mutually agreed-upon international order realised through the CONCORD treaties.

Except that a mutually agreed-upon international order realized through those agreements did exist among the people being invaded. To say that the Empire does not fill the role of the Triglavians, you would have to establish that the Triglavians, at the time of invasion, were already part of CONCORD, and violated those agreements.

@Amicia_Cora

I do not believe that my response downplayed historical events in any way

You believe wrong. All of your replies have downplayed centuries of murder, assault, rape, and torment into something acceptable, even laudable. Your empire’s proponents are no different from the Kybers in their ‘no, look, it’s really all for your own good’ rhetoric.

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

@Amicia_Cora

you fail her memory when you do so

You have no right to those words.

This conversation is over.

[Ax_l_Thorne]

@Arrendis

Faith is simply the narcotic those in power keep you hooked on

Slightly off topic, does not faith also mean trust?

Could one have faith in their ability? Would a trooper, who has faith in their leaders ability to lead well, also be considered under the influence of a narcotic?

[Arrendis]

@Ax_l_Thorne

Slightly off topic, does not faith also mean trust?

Faith is belief in the absence or defiance of evidence. It’s sometimes used to mean trust, but when that trust is grounded in evidence, it’s just that: trust, not faith. In the example of a trooper who places faith in their leaders… if there’s no evidence to suggest that their leaders are competent… then yes, the ‘you must be good, or you wouldn’t be in charge’ is very much an artificial additive being used to numb pain, worry, and anxiety—a narcotic.

[Ax_l_Thorne]

Ah, so if I were to say thar you have a lot of faith in the logical process, it would really mean trust. But to someone who doesn’t know much about that or an outsider, it could look like faith?

I don’t know much about the Amarrian God, but I would say that they have books and scriptures that teach them the way and they trust that, and the evidence in those and thus looks like faith.

Where as my faith is Wayism, is really faith because there isn’t a set of accords or teachings.