How is this what I was replying to… It isn’t.
I was replying to a statement claiming war decs and ganking dangers were equivalent.
Except it’s relevant because in all examples the new player dies, is probably left confused, and has to go through the trouble that new plays have to go through that often turn them away from the game.
- Crap now I need to make that isk back
- I spent “X” amount of time doing “Y” and now it’s all gone
- I don’t understand how or why I died
New players in Nullsec have to accept the fact that they are open to attack upon undocking just like they do in Highsec. I’m not saying that Wardecs are equivalent in all ways, but what I’m saying is that they leave the player feeling the same.
The point I was making if it wasn’t clear is that the end result is the same: A new player suffering from negative player engagement while trying to learn a game with lots of little nuances isn’t likely to stick around.
Why exactly am I talking about this? Because this is Eve Online and no one should truley be “safe”. We have scamming, spying, ganking, and all sorts of underhanded tactics that make the game unique and interesting in a sea of generic watered down games.
CCP and the playerbase ought to do a better job at retaining new players even in the face of all these sorts of adversities. How we all do that is likely an impossible task with the game in its current state.
I see, when will the CSM candidates be required to campaign anonymously and any corp / alliance affiliation forbidden?
RW was DOA because the rewards were nerfed before launch to the point it simply wasn’t worth the time. Probably because the CSM thought having worthwhile content like that in high sec was to be avoided at all costs.
Yeah their tools are out of date or simply non-existant to the point that missions pretty much have to be hand created. I suspect the biggest issue with that is that kind of thing doesn’t look good on your CV compared to “creation of advanced AI type” PvE.
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There’s a difference between having a stake in the game vs quality of life. When you have a group of people in a multitude of time zones, its hard to share the only blueprint, or keep track of all the minerals to build a ‘corp’ Orca, let alone have somewhere to store it.
If I recall the linking of the war to a structure wasn’t in the first iteration, but came later. Maybe the new system isn’t perfect, but I’d prefer its warts instead of the butchering that used to exist.
We got ganked plenty of times. In many ways it was refreshing that some of the industry people flying poorly fit retrievers had to ship into procures and watch local for the usual suspects. This is something distinct between Null and High, if a blue attacked us in Null we’d be able to press for compensation from the territorial owners, in High, not only is everyone a potential hostile, there’s no mechanism for compensation.
Of course, eve is hard. The question here was “is this fair?”. For my group, we persisted through tutorials, figuring out what ships were good for, what skills to train. We built something we were proud of and it was taken away by agresive incumbent groups we had no chance of beating.
The key takeaway I want you to get here is that while eve is supposed to be hard, if its too hard, don’t expect people to keep feeding you content at their expense.
Lol, yes, all the veterans dropped corp when the first war declaration struck.
Nobody was online, because that was the only way we knew to not loose ships. Of course, there would be a few people who didn’t check the forms or check their war status and they’d log on, only be killed. At best they died in something cheap, at worst they would get pissed off because nobody else was on to ‘save’ them.
And sitting on a gate cargo scanning ships so the results can be slapped into an online pricing tool to see if the gank squad in the next system should open fire is any different?
If you don’t want to talk to people, don’t join a corp. If you recurit someone into your corp who doesn’t come into comms, they’re either a spy or going to rob you. Get rid of mute corporation members.
The best way to stop the war was to ensure the aggressor got no content and made no ISK. The optimal strategy to achieve this outcome was to not log in. Its that simple. Anything else only encouraged the war to continue.
Well, there were some people in corporation who liked to smoke a bowl while they were mining. No doubt their mining experience is different to other’s. Yes, it was monotonous, it was not engaging, but it was what the game taught you to do from day one and it wasn’t complicated to do, unless you wanted to master it.
Not everyone has to be a hero. The more players in the game the better. Eve should be a vibrant place with people everywhere. Imagine if every system had half the number of people in it as Jita did.
Over and over? Ventures don’t get handed out for free. Besides, this data was presented in years past, I think by CCP rise and there was much ado about how player retention was better if someone was ganked.
Isn’t it supposed to be boring, so that the more entertaining and engaging activities in Low/Null are actually sought after and pursued?
The outcome for who? The ganker, the victim?
Wars should be about territory, control. If you want a moon, or a POCO, good luck destroying it by Suicide Ganking. Its much better to declare a war on the owner, siege it, fight them and take over the territory.
Ganking is just petty vandalism.
If it were up to me, I’d change the mechanics to ensure your sec status drop would see you tossed out into low security space. Wouldn’t walking in stations have been a bit more immersive logging into a prison?
Then explain “Burn Jita” were everything that moves is targeted?
Oh, the old trial by fire. If we tie rocks around your feet, throw you into the lake and you drown, you’re innocent. If you float, you’re a witch. If we tie you to a stake, set you on fire and you die, you were innocent. If you resist, the flames, you’re a witch.
Tether on NPC stations, even if they don’t repair your ship, would be a blessing.
That’s harvesting salt, the people who do it already have so much ISK, doing such things incurr a meaningless loss.
If only CCP gave leadership better tools. If I were running a Null security corporation, I would love a setting that causes people to self-destruct, should they enter high security space. Call it 'Tough Love". Put it right next to the ‘Friendly Fire’ setting.
Rubbish, the blood is all over their hands. Of the top 5, there were 2 that had war declared my old corporation just because we were doing SOE missions and mining with an Orca on grid.
If you join a Null group and they don’t protect you, or warn you of dangers, or form defensive fleets to deal with intruders, that’s a pretty poor Null group.
Null is about laying claim to territory and defending it with force. High security space shouldn’t be a gauntlet of highway men trying to rob you for just passing through.
If you are a miner who has ore to move to market, you probably haven’t made much liquid ISK to pay for it to be moved, so you move it yourself. Of course, in this post war declaration world entering an ore supply constraint causing prices to go up, moving ore is less necessary as the buy prices are now somewhat reasonable.
If only there were more places to run certain faction’s missions. We wanted to run SOE missions and there’s not a lot of places to do that, didn’t take long for the war declarations, its not like we could avoid going to the SOE agents after all.
We were a gaming group, It wasn’t in our charter to do such things. It was like the old saying, you can choose your friends, but you can’t choose your family.
If I could photoshop Hannibal Lecter licking pink Himalayan rock salt off of a bloody venture, I think it would illustrate this behaviour beautifully.
Like the bazzilion afk cloaky campers with their automated d-scan scraping software that have acted with impunity for over a decade?
Yes there is a difference. And what you describe is a stake in the game not just quality of life.
Quality of life is the game making a joint chat channel for you rather than having to make your own. Giving you a bullet-in board to share information. A calender for events. A shared killboard.
Once you start sharing assets you’re beyond just quality of life.
But it was too much to ask that they do this during a dec?
What was the difference between losing retrievers to ganks and an orca to a dec?
What if you could turn wardecs off by closing the corp office? And then back on again after a while?
The mechanism for compensation isn’t part of the game. It’s done by players. If someone wants to make one in a hi-sec corp they can.
I don’t expect people to keep feeding content. That’s why I’ve been the biggest pusher of social corps since it was first posted as an idea on the forums around 2014. And I really mean that. No one has been shouting the merits of social corps more than me.
But you can’t have your cake and eat it too. It takes away the meaningful choices involved with being in a corp.
We’re just now learning that the game is too safe and that giving people too much too easy not only screws the economy but also makes the game less meaningful.
You were lucky to come to eve with your friends. You already socialise in and out the game and work together. But with no investment and no stake in the game, that is not the case for the vast majority of corps in hisec. There is no need to interact and get familiar with your corp members, no need to support and prepare them because there is little shared jeopardy. If a noob gets ganked, what’s it to the ceo? So they don’t. The vast majority of hisec corps falsely advertise and have little to no activity or interaction. And the players that join them are probably wondering why everyone told them that to enjoy this game they should join a corp. And that’ll be the case for the corp after that, and the one after that, and the one after that…
This is the now the norm for corps. This is now the NPE. Trudging through false advertisements and empty corps. And i guarantee this happens to far more new players than wardecs or ganking. It is sheer luck that a player finds a good corp in their first month. Taking on new players is an important role in eve. But the vast majority of corps taking on new players in hi-sec are too casual if not completely dishonest or abusive.
If you’re wondering what has all this got to do with decs, it’s because decs were a deterrent to corps that are too casual, dishonest or abusive. They still are to some extent as Naari_Naarian found out…twice!
But shifting social corps far enough that they become the norm? Such that the vast vast majority of hi-sec players can enjoy structures and shared hangars, and leadership can skim corp tax off of players without the risk of wardecs, is a huge mistake. No stake. No meaning. No responsibility.
There definitely should be a place for social corps and casual players. There should definitely be a place where friends can start their own group and try out the game. But this shouldn’t be the normal way to play in a pvp sandbox. They shouldn’t have almost all the benefits of a corp and almost none of the risk.
Yes, including in hi-sec.
Then the same goes for ganking, or afk cloaking in null for that matter.
I genuinely hope not.
Low and null are meant to be more rewarding. But i sincerely hope that the intent is not to make hi-sec tedious.
So what if we want to control trade hubs and asteroid belts?
Are you absolutely sure your friends would have stuck around if they didn’t get decced but kept getting ganked?
Are you saying that kills during burn jita is proof that logging off isn’t the only strategy to prevent ganking…cause i can also show you some kills that happened during wardecs.
You’d love for peoples stuff to blow up in an unintuitive way for entering hi-sec but you’re not happy with ‘trial by fire’?
Yeah the same applies for hi-sec.
Hi-sec is a pvp zone as much as nullsec. The rules are different, but it’s still a pretty poor hisec corp that doesn’t warn you of dangers or form defensive fleets.
Even if your fleet is completely overwhelmed, what did goonswarm do whilst its entire alliance was camped into a single low sec station by the mbc?
Why SOE missions? Is it because their LP pays better?
Couldn’t you say that’s risk/reward?
I’m getting the impression that you want to play eve but with an on/off pvp button, or at least that highsec shouldn’t have pvp or normal risk/reward balance.
I find it hard to believe your friends would have stuck around if they hadn’t been decced. You at least are angry at any non-consensual pvp.
Yes.
No.
It was an event where Miniluv would fund everyones ship and have a good time. Higher value gank targets were shoot at first, but the goal was that every 15 minutes something would die.
How do you know this?
Sounds like a terrible idea.
Sure there’s exceptions that you can hand pick out. There always is. As someone that’s been involved with multiple wardec groups - big and small, and then done solo wars… I can tell you from experience that the smaller scale and solo wars were very much more intimate and the goal to terrorize or pick on someone.
We are playing Eve Online in 2020. Where groups have one-man holding corps to keep their members wardec free. Most groups are going to have an ore buyback program where they most of the time don’t even have to do anything but put it in an Orca.
Ok
You’ve offered your opinion here, so I’m going to offer my own, as I disagree.
I’m going to disagree because high density population centers have a much greater propensity for random violence, than rural populations or closed populations, so it seems logical to me this is replicated in EVE.
Actually, Jita is an example of this. We have armed robberies (ganks), pan-handling (begging in local), and scamming (isk doublers), plus our most recent addition, bingo hawkers (hypernet advertisers). Jita is New Eden’s greatest “city,” so, given the game’s structure, it’s logical these types of activities developed.
Highsec has the largest player population density out of the four areas (high, low, null, worm holes), so of course there will the greatest player interaction, voluntary or involuntary.
If highsec didn’t have all this activity going on (fights, hucksterism, hub camping, scamming) given it has the greatest population density, it would odd.
And in my opinion, it is all this activity, player created activity, that gives it (the game) its flair.
Sure, almost everyone complains about Jita and what all that goes on there, but everyone knows of Jita.
Out in the proverbial “sticks”, say like Ham? No one knows what goes on in Ham, and I’m betting most players didn’t even know there was a Ham.
So, the trade off for the convenience of a high density, multi-cultural society (highsec) is the more colorful and indeed (in EVE) sometimes inconvenient aspects of that society, like ganking…what you referred to as “highway men”.
“Highway men” are just one aspect of what makes EVE…EVE.
I, for one, appreciate it.
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So Jita is okay, because everyone is just used to the fact when you fly international you’re going to get accosted at LAX by chuggers on the way to domestic?
If only there was a Bacon and Eggs.
I understand your point, though it is frustrating some of the behaviours like spamming in the local are so frequent there must be some EULA violating macro or other automated bot facilitating them.
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Yup, I’ve never heard of Ham.
It’s a few jumps from Pout, 
HI.
and what are you going to do about this?
just passing thru and no defence on those ships …
concord waits 25 seconds what makes ccp criminals themselves
are you still saying HS is a save place ?
perhaps scanners should be forbidden or seen as a criminal act just like most of the stuff what is forbidden …
if there comes no counter or rebalance is will be over very soon .
greetings
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No. I am not saying that.
I believe “highsec” as a name for the 1.0 - 0.5 security section of the game gives a false impression of the safety level for that section of the game.
I have written previously on these forums that Concord should be removed entirely from the game. That is my opinion.
I do not believe an artificial safety (retribution) system such as Concord serves the game well. In fact, I believe it causes more confusion and dissatisfaction with the game, itself, than any other aspect of the game.
Concord as a construct leads new players, and some old players, into believing there should be safe “spaces”, “spaces” where you can expect to not be attacked by another player. This expectation is obviously false, as a player can be attacked in any space, at any time…only the consequences vary.
But, the “Concord” mechanic lends credence to this expectation of safety in the game, and this expectation leads to dissatisfaction when the “expectations” meet the “reality”.
Given the original design of EVE, whose very underpinnings was pvp, Concord should just be removed as it leads to false impressions of the game, and dissatisfaction within players who are expecting a “safer” game.
Other measures/restrictions could be put into place as to regards to the safety of new/young characters to protect them from predatory older characters, and vengeance/retribution, for the remaining player base, left entirely in the hands of players themselves.
This is my opinion on Concord, and highsec pvp mechanics.
Does anything need to be done about these? I’m not sure what the problem is here, friend.
Edit: go away and pretend to be a “professional game developer” on your facebook page, Jayce, maybe someone will care there
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The problem is that he got attacked, when he clearly was in a ship without any capability of defending itself.
This is a violation of his rights to play this game without the stress of loss.
It is clear, that the only action is to ban all losses in its entirety within the game. This change will have players back in the millions.
Not going to happen.
Highsec is a safer place. But not a safe place.
Concord provide consequences, they do not provide protection. You were carrying enough in those ships to make it worthwhile to kill them, and suffer the losses.
Carry less, and you’ll be less likely to die.
Cole fully subscribes to my way of thinking.
With this being the official forums, I figured it is most appropriate to write some hard truths in here.
I know the truth might be scary Scoots, but you cannot stop progress.
Also, stop searching facebook in an attempt to doxx me.
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