Do you know about reading? That bit where I said ‘Primary gameplay’.
Pyfa is not the primary gameplay in a normal fight. Sure you need to know your engagement profile, but you also need to properly fly your ship and maintain situational awareness.
No man, it’s not an insult, it’s called being incredulous. Feeling insulted is a sign that your argument is running out of steam, or to be more accurate, was on extremely shaky ground to begin with. You’ve demonstrated a direct lack of knowledge about a topic when making claims about something that the person you’re talking to is intimately familiar with, when you yourself aren’t. When presented with hard numbers, you ignored them and/or deflected. At this point, everyone sees that you’re just digging a deep hole for yourself, and should stop.
There are lots of arguments you could be making right now, which while still being not very good in themselves (they’ve been made before, and were handily beaten), would at least make sense. For example, you could say that jump freighters don’t offer enough utility compared to their production/market costs, or that freighters need to be given a bigger spread between cargo and tank in terms of fitting options. Instead, you say that ganking is bad because of “math”, and made a bunch of claims about other people.
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It’s almost like I’m not addressing JF’s as a ship class and addressing ganking as a whole independent of any particular class. With some changes JF’s might be a bit better off in terms of how much they get ganked relatively sure, but that wouldn’t solve the overall problem.
Ganking would still be terrible gameplay.
Hence why I’m not going on about balance changes to JF’s or Haulers like you want me to so you can bring up the old tired arguments against said changes, but calling for a change to the overall design of how ganks happen. As above, do note, I’m not saying ganking should not happen, nor commenting on how much happens, I’m commenting on the gameplay of how it happens.
To you.
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No, objectively the gameplay surrounding a gank is terrible. This isn’t a subjective thing.
Yes, there exists a need for people to be attackable. There exists a need for risk to cargo haulers, and for people to make mistakes and haul so much value pirates attack. These aspects are fine, but these aspects only dictate if ganking should be possible.
But a blink and you missed it event is terrible gameplay. This is why TTK is such an important aspect in all PvP games. And the ganking TTK is too short. It reduces the event to near pure maths (assuming you can click fast enough on the groups guns in each window). And this is bad. It creates a poor game experience for anyone on the receiving end of a gank, and it doesn’t create anywhere near as thrilling an experience on the ganking side either, just the push button, receive bacon dopamine response.
Sure there is great stuff in the set up and logistics side of ganking, but that isn’t the actual event itself.
You’re once again talking about what other players find enjoyable. Are you those other players? How do you know what is and isn’t thrilling for a ganker? On what basis do you claim that TTK is too short? Would changing anything about ganking, aside from whether or not it’s possible to perform, change the enjoyment of the game experience for someone on the receiving end of a gank? All of that is conjecture on your part. You’re not doing anything to quantify your arguments, or even base them in logic.
Wrapping gank play up into just 12-26 seconds when the guns are active, seems to be dismissing completely the “gameplay surrounding ganking”. It seems a bit illogical.
The gameplay surrounding ganking involves a lot more than just F1. Same with the situational awareness and ganking groups are only able to hit targets because they have such good situational awareness, across several systems.
So it isn’t true that “objectively the gameplay surrounding a gank is terrible”. That is 100% a subjective judgement, which is perfectly fine. But it’s isn’t an objective view.
Because I’m not going to go and dig up the actual scientific articles on this for you. Common sense should be sufficient to identify this as logical without that, and if you aren’t prepared to even go that far before responding I’m not going to do any work for you.
I literally stated about the other aspects. Trying to claim I’m ignoring them is downright dishonest. And you are creating a strawman argument by misframing what I’ve been saying.
Nice team up in order to preserve the current gameplay though.
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What scientific articles? What are you even talking about?
You’re doing the “I could, but I won’t even though it is” thing now. No one asked you for a statistical study on TTK in video games. Just stop already, and save some face.
What did you mean by “a blink and you miss it event is terrible gameplay”?
The only one being dishonest here is you Nevyn. Trying the claim on the one hand that it is a blink and you miss it event, but then also try to say you literally stated all of the other gameplay around ganking, and then at the same time claim that it’s objectively bad gameplay can’t all be true at the same time.
IIRC One member of that tag team is a professional hauler of the frog persuasion, amongst other things.
I always thought that Red Frog and other such groups would be quite happy with rampant ganking, it helped their business model. So the views of one of them that ganking is fine is hardly something to set your stall out on.
And there is nothing wrong with saying that blink and you miss it is bad gameplay at least for the victim. I don’t know why people get so emotive on such a statement. This is fine as a comment:
My issue with ganking was the no consequence point known as bumping, with that gone I am happy with the balance overall. I have gripes, I think tags have made it too easy to avoid consequences, I think loot scooping via a DST is lame and removes part of the risk.
I think that Freighters need more fitting options to make it less of a spreadsheet game, I would love a target lock breaker module too, which gives individual players at least an attempt at counter play and would make it less spreadsheets in space as Nevyn pointed out.
I am pretty sure that my thoughts and suggestions here will get a normal hysterical reaction by some but that is the nature of these forums.
I am not ignoring the counter play and stuff around it, the removal of bumping makes it valuable to have a scout in place waiting for the gankers to commit so you can bring your freighter through while they are FR, however Kusion and Painter ganging up makes that strategy more risky and they have enough alts to maintain that bump because all they have to do is re-set the timer. It has a kind of balance though.
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Luckily, no one is emotive over that. Claiming on the one hand that it is a blink and you miss it event (ie. the 12-26 seconds of guns active) and then claiming to have considered all of the gameplay and that:
Just can’t all be true. It’s not objective at all. It’s purely subjective, which is perfectly fine, since we are all allowed our own judgements on things. We just aren’t entitled to call our judgements as objective views when they clearly aren’t, for any of us.
That just reduces the game to something far less than it actually is, where difference people are able to find enjoyment/meaning/entertainment/etc. in a range of different things they enjoy.
There’s also engaging play in it on both sides. It isn’t all about gankers having fun and targets not. Australian Excellence tried to gank my hauling alt a few weeks back. I deserved it, because I was being lazy, but luckily, not lazy enough that I was completely defenseless, and he failed. 36 gank ships as a mix of Talos and catalyst. GF’s exchanged in local and I continued on my way.
The play for haulers to keep themself safe can be an enjoyable part of the game, even as a gank target.
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You should go time the ganks of JF’s in Jita. it is not a blink, but it is very quick.
Sure, but that isn’t all of the gameplay around ganking.
If you read up, that’s all I said originally. It can’t be reduced to 12-26 seconds when the guns are active and then claim that all of the gameplay around ganking is objectively terrible.
There is far more gameplay involved than the F1 button.
He is talking about it from the other side, the victim.
No he isn’t. He literally said:
Try again?
You really need to go back and read the thread a bit better because he started off on this
Sometimes I think you just want a yes/no gotcha argument with me? Try again, please?
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Bumping is/was indeed pretty bad, since it had no counter-play whatsoever. Tags are necessary because the punishment (forced to grind killing rats for tens of hours) is excessive.
You didn’t need to end it like that. The pro-ganking reactions have been fairly reasonable.
The addition of any counter-play mechanics to ganking would be a direct nerf to ganking. Why? Because CONCORD is a kill trigger. If you add anything to the game that boosts gank target resilience, then the only way gankers would be able to respond is by fielding more ships. So in the end, any counter-play mechanics would indeed make the entire process as “spreadsheets” as ever, because ganking is, and has always been, a damage over time calculation. If you want to put more agency into players’ hands with regard to defending themselves from criminal actions, you will need to proportionately reduce the effectiveness of the NPC police, otherwise you’re simply shifting the ganking equation to “okay, we’re going to need X% more shooters now.”
And I have a feeling that 99.99% of all carebears are going to be very much against any proposal that reduces NPC police effectiveness for any reason.
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It makes the consequences meaningless… I remember coming across people going to Stain and setting up to belt rat to get their standings back up again, it created content. Tags removed that.
I am thinking about buff to Freighter survivability, the Target spectrum lock breaker would be ideal for freighters and add more uncertainty to ganking. It will most definitely not be more gankers because that would make it worse.
I expect that most gankers would give up as they love their dead certs…