Thanks allot for the response, maybe next year when I reach that 15mil SP mark ill be in contact
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Thanks for the response Rendiir but I did take a look at the UKC once before and the mandatory API isn’t for me…as a representative of a UK based alliance I assume you understand my problem with the guilty till proven innocent concept that is fascicle API checks and I can’t in good conscience be under the leadership of people that have such invasive requirements, but truely thank you for the consideration.
No problem. Don’t rule out giving UKC a go. you’d be suprised what we have to offer members.
I seariously wouldnt worry about giving your API out. there is no way that anyone can try and steal anything from you. i can understand the concern for people being nosy and looking through your assets then trying to scam you but that is not us.
As a recruiter i have scaned through recruits sheets for anything that raises any flags… never check them again.
Nah it’s not a worry about my assets, iv’e been around the internet long enough to know a scam lol
It’s the basic principle of the matter…it may seem cynical in a game of all things but “innocent till proven guilty” isn’t just a thing people say.
The presumption of innocence ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat Is a universal human right, one of which paranoid people in this game are inclined to ignore.
I have 3 characters, 1 of which is part of another corporation I don’t hide that fact…but for someone to request access to my contacts/ flight habbits/ clone locations/ spending habbits is invasive.
If high value items and positions of power were to be discussed then yes, I totally understand why someone would request a more intensive screening process…but at a recruiting level :-/ (the process also isn’t reversed when it’d be just as relivant to have leaders offer THEIR full API).
Again, thank you but its not based on worrying about my stuff, its concern about anyone that would be that intrusive.
While we do need API’s, it’s not a full API. We ask for everything apart from Jump Lones, Bookmarks etc, it’s more for Skills and Unusual Assets, for example, ~ Pilot has a Super and may need help moving assets, might have been given it by an Enemy Alliance etc, Random payments from enemies etc always a concern.
However we actually use API’s for something far more automated, we use them to keep our comms clear of neutrals/enemies/ex-members when you leave our Corp, your API updates, removes you from our forums/comms etc and then auto deletes it. The idea is to minimize the chances of us having spies lingering for years in your comms and then suddenly appearing later on, not to mention a lot less tedious when assigning someone roles/permissions/passwords to about 6 different coalition/alliance websites/timers/fleets/comms and has become a necessity simply for ease of access.
Renter corps who are not involved in many things etc can understandably don’t need API’s however you’re thinking of Corporations as something their not, they’re effectively jobs and APIs are like a Resume, part of a Screening process for bad eggs, much like interviews and references, unfortionately this game encourages dishonesty and CCP doesn’t have any retribution like other games or Real Life for Cheating etc so you have to expect reasonable measures to be taken to reduce this possibility, add an ingame systems where theft and AWOXING actually has punishable acts and you can to some degree rely on your “innocent until proven guilty” doesn’t work here as a result of no retributional acts from “law enforcement”.
Sorry for the derail!
I refuse to give my API to anyone too (and have never given it to anybody) and I’ve been a pariah for 5 years and was only able to find 2 decent corps to join in that time. Fair play to you if you stick to your guns.
It’s a strange one really, there’s awoxers and thieves that hand over their API and jump corp every week and they have no problem getting into a corp to steal and kill. API key is 99% psychological.
No need to apologise atall and I really do appreciate the detailed response and reasoning …but as you stated it’s kind of like the “resume” if you will, and thought you raise a few other points the reasoning boils down to it being more like a criminal database check than a resume (which you only do once you have the job)
The resume would generally be the application.
I know it can be a cutthroat game dont get me wrong, but it’s people and distrust that encourage dishonesty not the game.
But yea I do expect reasonable measures…full API check’s are not reasonable measures though and the reasoning for them are very lacking.
All of the big events or backstabbings in eve were from trusted people, API’s didn’t protect them and though you had some good points it was still based on corp intel/ paranoia and ease of use for the corp and it’s best interests doesn’t lay with the player.
If these checks were done on individual characters then I could somewhat agree but it dosen’t and is intrusive on CCP’s paying members.
Thankyou again for the detailed description of your use of API’s but I still don’t think there is any valid reason for them…was a good read though
Totally agree on that.
Awoxers slipping through the net will happen with or without the API checks all they do is set a precedent for distrust.
If I wanted to ■■■■ someone over for a trillion isk it wouldnt be too much trouble to make a brand spanking new account to do it with…would be worth it in the long run… API checks didn’t save Co2 or all the other corps that got back stabbed so it’s a redundant format only used to be nosy n see what your doing with all your characters lol
Honestly, I just wanted to explain why some of us use them, it’s also an offer of reassurance even if it is only to placate the masses that checks are being done, but I get where your point comes from, the issue is though the “innocent until proven guilty” perspective assume laws and guidelines which can be used to enforce what is considered “criminal” but nothing is criminal in eve, so innocent until proven guilty means nothing as there’s is no guilty or not in a judicial manner.
There are also numerous occupations out there that require criminal checks to be done Prior to you getting the job
- Post Office.
- Revenue and Customs
- Schools (any post)
- Social Services
While this is a game, your basis and logic for your point are skewered, if you’re applying to a renter/HS Corp is a “normal job” comparison, if you’re after a serious ish null-sec corp it’s considered “military” in nature so these checks are normal in real life.
Pandemic Horde do not require API’s unless you join their Capital groups etc however, their ratting systems for general members who also PVP is literally filled every single day with reports of AWOXING, minimum SP requirements and checks using APIs/Killboards for interactions of killing Blues etc (You’d be surprised at how many tools out there can auto scan this information for you rather than traweling through information like most nullsec corps do). the checks, if done right can allow you to reject people who have alts who have Cyno’d in enemies, who have shady backgrounds, have had any issues or stupidly forget to delete a mail from theeir ceo who kicked them for drama etc.
While it might not stop a smart spy/griefer it does catch some, and it’s because of this I have personally seen a few “issues” and rejected applications as a result it does work, it’s a necessary evil in new Eden.
There are also numerous occupations out there that require criminal checks to be done Prior to you getting the job
Revenue and Customs
Schools (any post)
Those are called Jobs, this is a videogame. The difference is if I allow someone from a company to do a background check on me in real life I’m confident that they’re a professional who is legally obliged to be confidential with what they find. When you hand your API over to some spergtastic autist in eve you have no idea who you’re giving it to.
Which you can then always delete afterwards if you don’t stay in the corp. I agree with the whole it shouldn’t be used as a recruitment tool, but once you join using it for Operational Security is still a useful tool. While comparing “this” to a job, yeah but this is also your game information being used in a game so… it’s not like people are asking for your real life info for the game, their asking for game info in a game.
It’s better to think of it like this - even a ccriminal database check doesn’t stop you doing shady stuff IRL however it deters people who have done shady stuff previously and allows you to have those people not approach you as you can easily identify those individuals.
Agreed so you normally sppeak to people and they should only be asking for the API if they want to recruit you after having a chat, i.e. the criminal check as you coined it with the intention of having you join fully upon review of it. Using it as a recruitment tool is probably overly w.e but honestly, if there’s a measure which offers even a small chance of stopping one bad player joining, people are going to want to use it,
it’s not like people are asking for your real life info for the game, their asking for game info in a game.
Many do, I’ve had virus scripts sent to my email after I left a corp, I’ve had people from eve send me google maps screenshots of the front of my house, and then you have people like this
Honestly it’s better to be a loner than go down this road with the likes of the people who play eve. I will give nobody a single thing, not my email, facebook, API key or anything else.
You can’t get E-mail addresses from API’s thats your own fault for providing those to people. And them getting your address is being in a comms tool thats not made in game by CCP as those are not governed by them and again your fault and in no way related to APIs.
If you get mails and screenshots of your addresses from other players, you should send it to CCP and allow them to take action to ban them from the game to reduce such actions.
Anyhow, I was directing this at the person who posted the advert to see if there’s a way to get him to be more open to API Keys as they’re not the evil thing people seem to think and there’s a fair few reasons for it. If the OP is interested message me to avoid more people trying to jump on this if not no worries ~
It’s like I’m talking to a generic dreary reply generator. I bet you’re great fun in at parties.
As someone that works in social services no, none of thoes Jobs mentioned require a background check before an offer of employment.
But no, I don’t think I will be open to mandatory API checks because the moral still stands.
It’s been fobbed off once saying it’s for standard automated checks then later said its used for both automation and to read through peoples messages…it’s intrusive.
I have friends in real life that play this game , some even refer to me by my real name and it’s absolutely no business of any corporation the conversations I have with thoes people.
So for every 50 people you steal there multiple character data from you may find 1 untrustworthy person…it’s a messed up system that people implement to accompany their paranoia and I won’t take part in it.
Especially when some of us leave corps on good standing or are just looking to expand their play time.
I understand it’s an easy way to do a background check and makes the process easier for CEOs to bolster their corp numbers.
But I did clearly state in my original post that a corp that holds its potential new members in such low reguard is not a corp I’d enjoy being part of.
But out of interest Aurelia do you and your corp management CEOs offer the same in return ? I.e would the applicant receive a full API key from the owners and CEOs of the corp to clarify that they too are trustworthy players ?
Just jumping in to say this is a great convo on API checks and a rare thing on the internet: people being courteous and civil to each other on opposite sides of the debate.
Hahaha, people can have different views but still be curtius we don’t have to resolve to name calling…Aurelia Breeze and other people that have been involved in this conversation may have different views to me but that doesn’t mean wev’e gotta turn into a &%$^'s about it
…totally imagining 2 Englishmen wearing bowler hats and monocles having a discussion…good day to you sir !!! lol
I agree totally, but sadly it’s a rare thing to behold on the internet.
@Blackd0g I would have to base it on the person I was speaking to, as anyone should but I don’t have an issue with people seeing my API as their CEO for a few minutes, obviously I have to be somewhat conscious of Mails due Operation Security in Nullsec PVP Alliances etc so there’s obviously limiting factors to that being a complete 2 way street, which somewhat reduces your options. Other things to consider is that as a CEO I’m a “public face” for my corporation so regardless of being able to see my APIs if I were to do anything shady it would become obviously apparent.
Plus - I’m smart enough not to discuss anything personal life etc or plans etc in game anyway due to obvious reasons, I’ve not had any mails sent / received in the corporation apart from things like ~ Buy orders / Orebuybacks etc and questions from potentital recruits (which again I would be dubious of sharing as those are conversations between a recruit who might be poached if I were to release it!)
With the above in mind, it really becomes restricting how much of an API I could actually share with a new recruit, to the point it would become pointless, alternatives however would be to message members within my corporation to ask how the corp is, how its run, what I’, like etc rather than the API. I do usually message peoples previous CEO’s and see if they left on good terms and use that more of a determining factor if I want someone, the API’s are really just more of a requirement for all large nullsec alliances, mostly these days for services.
BlackD0g if you want to message me in game about this I don’t mind having a chat and doing an interview etc however you want to put it across without an API (I never ask for those until I’m happy to drag you in), but we don’t actually ask for a “full api”, it’s still a tad intrusive however.
I like to think I am a Rare Entity on the Internet so thanks!