Dev blog: Introducing Resource Wars


(Zimmyzam) #490

I don’t think Resource Wars being a “gank resistant” activity are “not eve.”

The idea that you can and will be ganked 100% of the time for any reason regardless of context is… a bit blatantly false. When was the last time you saw someone running L1 or L2 missions in highsec get ganked? Someone leaving Jita with a mere 10 million in cargo? While anyone COULD gank you in these scenarios, the game mechanics are deliberately set up to make this unattractive, uninteresting, and unprofitable for gankers. While it is true HS is not “safe” in the sense your completely immune to attack, it is 100% within the precedent of the game to make many activities in HS effectively safe, simply by being too small and annoying for a ganker to swat. Highsec ganks happen when you start doing extremely profitable activities, like hauling hundreds of millions of isk of materials, or afk mine, in a careless way, not just “Cuz the gankers want it.” I bet a ganker wants to gank every venture that enters an ore belt, but the game already essentially tells you that after a certain point you won’t be allowed in highsec anymore, prohibiting that activity.

In essence, gankers already have restrictions on their activity that allow ganking at their discretion, but also make it highly inconvenient to hit smallfry.

Hell, it is downright against the rules to set up to gank in newbie zones, and for good reason, ganking in new player content is kinda short sighted trolling rather than “Content.” Sure newbies in newspace aren’t really worth ganking but people will gank just to be jerks. This is clearly intended to be a step between “Career agent” and “Full sandbox” that will help filter combat and mining pilots into corporations eager for fresh blood to train.

T highly doubt that L5 RW content will strictly speaking be worth it for an experienced player looking for ISK compared to setting up fully gankable mining gangs, but it will probably do a good job of creating an enviroment where highsec miners stop being highsec miners in a way that allows them to move onto other things, and similarly help experienced mission runners join up to a corp that can help them advance.

A biiiig problem with the new player experience is there aren’t relatively gank-safe activities, and again if you are saying no activity in EVE is safe from ganking your a liar, that are ALSO group activities, this fits that niche.

Hopefully this will cause more big mining fleets for a team to take out for big money. More players going into industry actually staying in the game when they realize solo highsec mining and production just doesn’t work out for new players. More combat pilots actually sticking around to experience L5s, wormholes, and nulsec missions and ratting.

Pretty much everything about this content, from the fact that it encourages miners to expose themselves to combat, to the fact it forces missioners into a social setting, make it clear this is intended to be a transitional piece of content. Even the primary reward, a fully fitted T1 ship that will help you advance ship sizes, is nearly valueless to an experienced player but something massively inciting to new players who often struggle to afford their size up. If you are clever, you will be the one to “transition” the player. That is the “payout” for vets. Not kills, not isk. Its recruits.

Any CEO that is clever is going to want recruiters in the L3-L5 fleets.

(Tipa Riot) #491

Sorry for the time you took to address ganking in your reply … this is not my point (others above make it a thing though), nobody will gank newbie miners with or without gate.

Lol, this won’t be a corp activity, same as Incursions aren’t. Group PvE and Corps in highsec are not compatible because of wardecs.

(Zimmyzam) #492

If you are in a state of 100% wardecs you either have such serious issues that recruitment isn’t a priority or your so infamous people join you just to join you.

This is very different from incursions because incursions are heavily skill gated end game content and its not likely you will be able to recruit a newbie from an incursion fleet. However Incursion groups, lowsec missioners, mining groups, wormhole corps, and even small nulsec groups all have every reason to want newbies to be collected together in a social enviroment that encourages mentorship.

Like I said I doubt corps and high end players will set themselves up to be all about resource wars, but its REALLY bad for a game to design everything as if it has to be inherently attractive for people at the end game. You need a feeder system that encourages new players to get into situations where experienced groups can “discover” them.

EvE has a problem where new people can easily putter out of steam getting stuck at low end solo activity, it doesn’t have inherently social content that encourages meet and greets like other MMOs. Other MMOs have dungeon queues, LFG, and even the ability to wander into someone who saves your butt when your out farming.

In EvE there is very little middleground between “Play solo” and “Immediately sign up for a corp, something very intimidating for one not familiar with EvE.” This is not intended to make veteran sociopaths who already know what they like and are really good at accomplishing their goals happy. This is going to make corporate officers and new players who have hit a wall with solo content happy. Not all content is for everyone and I wouldn’t expect a new incursion system to be immediately and directly relevant to me as a wormhole corp director just as small gang gankers probably shouldn’t necessarily expect an update to the NPE that attempts to feed shy newbies into group activity to be designed around their needs.

From everything I have seen (The rewards that are disproportionately valuable to new players who want to “size up,” the fact your running around a system constantly encountering gangs of players, the fact it encourages both combat tolerant miners and just combat pilots in general into a social situation) makes me think that power miners won’t show up here like many people fear, but that this will serve as a good “intro to grouping” content, similar to how low level dungeons in MMOs often are the first time the game forces you to interact with other people in a cooperative way.

I would be very surprised if this was a viable career in eve, but I would also be surprised if mid sized corps didn’t have people deliberately leading kitchen sink fleets in local trying to make the idea of joining their corp on a long term basis less intimidating to mid-skill pilots who have grown enough to be of value to a corp.

(Tipa Riot) #493

Sure, but other MMOs are not EvE. In the past CCP put effort into creating an environment where veterans and newbies can play together in the same sandbox on as much fair terms as possible.

Now we see a radical paradigm shift towards shielding new players longer and longer from the sandbox by creating disconnected islands. Disconnected from the player driven market, disconnected from actions have consequences, disconnected from creativity, disconnected from unpleasant player interaction (not yet fully, but this will come).

Where should this lead? How can this feature create interest in the sandbox?

(Zimmyzam) #494

Eve not being other MMOs doesn’t mean every single concept from other MMOs should be ignored.

I also heavily disagree that this is some special shielded area far outside what one traditionally could experience in EVE. Again, a vast majority of highsec content is essentially ungankable and doesn’t invite player interaction ever.

Trade wise new solo players basically have no interaction with the market already besides selling meta modules at comically low prices. No one honestly gives a ■■■■ about a solo player struggling to save up for their first battleship running in BC missions and no one ever will. This isn’t intended to fix that short term, but long term will advance mid-tier solo players out of that area faster and get them to the point where they are seriously driving the market.

Saying this is disconnected from actions having consequences goes back to my big post about why, no, not all content should be gank friendly. A lot of it very deliberately isn’t, and hasn’t been from the game’s inception. Sociopathic gankers aren’t bad for the game, in fact they are very good for it, but the demand to warp the entire game around their needs is ridiculous and short sighted. Gankers are not god’s gift to eve, and honestly the idea that total unsafety is why most people want to play the game is a lie. EVE gets new players, gets bigger and better and more actual content when major corporate scandals happen, not when some solo pilot blows up some idiot miner. That is impactful for the solo pilot, but for the vast majority of players, no one actually cares. Small gang gankers call themselves "content’ but they really aren’t, in the grand scheme they are literally just a single step up from solo PVE carebears in terms of how much anyone actually cares about their actives. CODE I care about. Hulkageddon I care about. Your bizarre desire to blow up newbies in a venture (it is very clear you DO care about people in these areas getting ganked, your first post in the thread was essentially “CAN I PVP IT?” despite this very clearly being about teasing out a better new player experience and no one in their right mind ganks people participating currently in career agents because its a fast way to get banned) is weird and already fully doable. You just don’t do it because there is no point, and demanding new content to cater to the idea that we should make everything highly gankable when your already not ganking in this context is questionable.

Saying this is disconnected from creativity is sorta absurd, because, again, most PVE content mid grade players have access to includes no creativity already, no interaction. It has nothing, its just ISK, LP, and Standing generation. You don’t meet people. You don’t get to do fleet doctrines, diplomacy, gatecamp tactics, anything really. Its just blap ■■■■. This is still just blap ■■■■, but its blapping ■■■■ in a place where people who do things more than blapping stuff can reach you and influence you, and the fact it is naturally gang related and you now have a dual focus already has caused people to hypothesize weird builds (like mine-drakes) and will encourage assistance modules outside of fleet fights.

You claim this makes an island. I see a bar. A place where I can “pick up” newbies. I don’t care that the LP store for this won’t affect markets despite my main income source being station trading because it is very likely that increased corporate activity will have a better effect on my station trading anyway, and I know that currently missioners and miners have almost no direct interaction with mining anyway, they just dump stuff mindlessly and may as well be NPCs I have to react to rather than being market participants. And what I suspect you really want is to just make this into another back alleyway to stab people.

We don’t need ways to stab fresh naive players, because we already can and just don’t because its so comically not fun or worth it. We need ways to make these players into players worth stabbing, or people who can participate in the stabbing.

And to top this off everyone is assuming that massive multiboxes will make ganking impossible by hitting the gate limit, but many many ways were pointed out of avoiding that, such as camping the gate itself, not to mention the fact its likely this content won’t be worth multiboxing (Again, the LP reward is t1 fitted ships which unless they are earned in an hour won’t beat out gang mining belts by a longshot) meaning it will be VERY easy to “infect” these fleets with your own gang if you can out number the “legit” players.

(Jin'taan) #495

Oh no, having a negative sec status might limit your options and mean you have to use different tactics (warping in after site finishes, using a non-flashy tackler on a gate), the horror.

(Zimmyzam) #496

Or just maintain sec status if you want to be a career highsec ganker because it is a completely trivial task and makes it easier to pull off.

(Tipa Riot) #497

As said multiple times, I’m not interested in ganking in highsec nor do I see any relevance of this topic here. Your arguments are mostly based on that … this is not the issue!

Regarding market … with RW newbies learn, that ships come ready fit from NPC rewards, also they learn that stuff from inside the “dungeons” has no worth outside, the stuff even magically disappears when leaving. Also they learn the most important thing in New Eden is mining and giving the mined stuff to NPCs for bacon.


What I expect is, that new newbie friendly PvE respects the sandbox. Giving out BPCs, fitting plans and ISK instead of ready-fit battleships. Providing a real community tool, where people can organize themselves adhoc for those sites in fleets (NPC FC?). Basically taking EvEs mechanics and put them on rails, instead of inventing new mechanics outside the sandbox.

(yellow parasol) #498

you never ganked a thing, right? :blush:

(yellow parasol) #499

career gankers go -10. your post makes no sense. i’m objecting the idea that such a room is meant for ganking. it’s hypocritical to say such a thing. he doesn’t even understand what he’s talking about. yeah, sure, have heavy tackle sit there and wait for concord to show up, before the -10 has even warped in. yeeeaaahhhh suuuuure, because that makes any sense!

any tackler will spawn concord, meaning there’s barely an time for the -10 to actually gank, plus the tackler loses sec as well. if the csm member actually had done any ganking for a prolonged amount of time, he’d know that he’s talking nonsense.

i don’t mind how this stuff is going to work, but the idea of that room enabling gankers to do their gameplay is ridiculous.

Tipa Riot is completely right. This whole thing is anti-EVE from several angles.

(Jin'taan) #500

I would do no such thing, gosh.

At the end of the day, massed HS ganking ATM relies on ignoring these penalties through non -10.0 points and direct warp ins. The only option not available to HS gankers that are -10 is camping the in acc gate. One can still be probed into the site after completion, or use non -10 to catch a BS on a gate then bring in your fleet, or simply catch them whilst travelling as many already do with Freighters.

(yellow parasol) #501

miners are the easiest of all targets… but okay, benefit of the doubt…

(Jin'taan) #502

At the end of the day if I wanted to gank freighters, I’d be in an organisation which was good at ganking freighters. I recognise that ganking is an important part of the game, but outside of the occasional miner gank with my friends it’s not something I find particularly enthralling. The reason my sec standing ends up so low is LS PvP.

(yellow parasol) #503

unrelated, but i really wonder why people are so obsessed with freighters and miners. it’s as if everyone thinks that’s all there is to it. ganking is in a seriously unhealthy state, so i see pretty much everything that throws roadblocks into it’s way as one more nail in the coffin. the criminal community is killing itself, slowly.

i hope that a new generation comes, that revitalizes it, but from looking at cultural progress, antagonism in highsec is dying and the biggest part of the reason why it’s dying, is because of the well fed, ego tripping “antagonists”, who aren’t even worth being called such. they’re mostly gankbears. can we petition to have them all banned, so we can start anew?

anyhow, carry on … good luck in your future endeavours.

(Dave Stark) #504

because people are morons and overfill their freghters so it’s profitable to gank them. also they’re the biggest fish in the sea, if you can kill one of them you can kill anything.

(yellow parasol) #505

thank you for sharing your simple perspective on an actually complex matter. i understand that it’s easily mistaken as so simple, that one might believe an equally simple, kneejerked one-liner might be able to properly explain every single aspect of the phenomenon.

Thank you, and please know that i will always and forever honour your thoughts.

(Dave Stark) #506

there’s nothing complex about it.

if it’s valuable, shoot it and take it.

(Jin'taan) #507

The fundamental reason is that it’s a lot easier to track Freighters, as they traffic fairly set routes. The mission running ships worth ganking generally chill in their running system, though they do still die eventually.

(Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance) #508


It was mentioned at Vegas the pirate NPC’s will look for players in system that have bad standing.

Anyone know if they will warp to mission pockets?

(Tipa Riot) #509

This will be fun, who has not? :wink: