How to get more wars, and 00 activity through corporate share utility

(bodycollecter) #1

Would be nice to have more utility out of corporate shares.

I.E. being able to place them on rewards for contracts or even have a trade for them.

Along with a performance history. This would allow for having an actual stock market that could be utilized.

A feature that when an item is sold for the corp you could set a % of the return to automatically go into a wallet division that could only be depleted through dividend payouts.

The share program and dividend system is a great utility but needs some TLC as it is a feature that has been left to rot for way too long.

This could allow for major funding opportunity for large scale projects. And create an entirely new asset market for trading.

If done correctly it could create a ton of content for new and old players alike.
This could create a much stronger connection between 00 and empire. Which would motivate more players to move into 00. It could really boost production, Wars, and investment. Because of influx of investment cash corporations would be higly motivated to move into 00 because of the larger profit margins. It would also be able to become a residual income for individuals who invested. Then combat interest and market interest would be able to collide. Creating true resource wars. anyhow just my 2cents.

What do you think? any suggestions?

(Mr Lopez) #2

Eve online also has no banking or penal system similar to rl. There is no binding way to make anyone pay you anything from defaulting or fulfilling any agreement (barring shipping contracts). Why would a null entity trust strangers with money they will never get back. I would think most of the money would just into someones wallet. You could blow someone up 10000 times and if they only travel in noob ships you do nothing to their wallet. Chasing someone around like that would more than likely also be considered griefing…

The more it becomes like the real world the less it is Evelike. Pros and cons to both.

(Elena L Kho) #3

there have been a couple banking systems created by players. in the end though they turned around and were like “thanks for all the fish, deuces”

However i too would love to see a corporate exchange, maybe rename alliances to mega-corps and each corp that joins becomes subsidiaries. Plus an added tier something like super conglomerate where the alliance/mega corps could organize together, instead of it being a OOG feature.

that may be a bit ambiguous the way i explained the idea. Think about the recent world war bee situation. where we had the imperium coalition and money badgers. these were things organized out of game. there was no real way of determining who was part of these factions in game, just outside research.

(Mr Lopez) #4

Yea it would be neat but again… personal accountability is totally lacking on defaults on loans ect… Governments often insure the banks as well.

The player banks and coalitions that form from allies and can be betrayed appear to be the direction the game makers want things to go. I don’t have problem with it at all. It gets news articles and makes things interesting. However it is a hostile environment for some types of institutional concepts to form.

(Merin Ryskin) #5

There isn’t much of a choice there. How do you stop betrayal from happening? Have a GM rule “that wasn’t a nice thing to do” and reverse all of the traitor’s actions? The kind of system that would remove betrayals would instantly remove 99% of EVE’s content and you’d be left with a boring “level your Raven” PvE game that would be dead by the end of the week.

(Merin Ryskin) #6

As for the OP, the problem with the idea is that it depends on the useless share mechanic. Shares are one of those features that was introduced 15 years ago, based on the idea that “real corporations have this”, and then never touched again. They just don’t work in a world like EVE, where accountability is nonexistent and alts are an easy way to avoid consequences. For example, say I sell 100 shares of my corporation. What’s stopping me from just taking your money, transferring all of the corp’s assets to a new corp, and shutting down the first corp? Or saying “thanks for the money”, issuing my alt 101 new shares so that you don’t have a voting majority and can’t do anything, and never paying out any dividends? And that’s without even getting into stuff like insider trading or any of the various other stock market exploits that we’ve banned in the real world.

(Mr Lopez) #7

I think you misunderstood what I wrote… I said in essence that the type of regulation that would be needed for the OP proposal would not work in EVE…

(bodycollecter) #8

It could work, We have always used the share dividend for internally funding large projects. It has been used in the game multiple times.

It would be a very risky investment. But could turn very large rewards too.

The only real feature that would need to be added would be a share performance tracker. Then like every thing else in eve. You would have demand based on your reputation.

It is an economic form of PVP.
There are killmails generated based on ships used. Which is the common tool used in PVP to assess effectiveness.

So something as simple as putting a info tag on corp shares.
Number of Shares that exist:
Average Days for Dividend Payment:
Average Amount of Dividend Payment:
Last payment issued on mm/dd/yyyy at 0000

This by itself would be enough for creating the described effect above.

With this information available it would be able to create a market and utility for the shares that players would be able to make an informed decision on the risk they were taking. just my 2 cents what do you think?

(Raybra Brahms) #9

it will just be used for scamming and nothing else.

Open corp, boost its stats some fake way, sell shares to idiots that buy stuff from Jita sellers, end of your idea’s content generation.

i.e. not worth programming it just for its scam value.

(bodycollecter) #10

only stupid people would be suckered into the scams because if there is a history of payment. Then a person would have to be a moron to just purchase shares from a new group.

But that is the way of eve risk and reward. The whole concept of eve is risk vs reward. It is a giant skinner box.

If the basic information on shares is available as stated before is made available then a consistent pattern can be established. As with any feature in EVE behaviors are established by the patterns of Risk vs Reward.

There are scammers in every aspect of EVE whether it be Market, Contracts, etc. That however does not reduce the productivity that comes from such mechanics. It just makes people have to inform themselves of such mechanics and reduce risk taken to their assets.

Human behavior is very predictable in things like this. You will undoubtedly have those who try to game the system. However, with established data patterns individuals would be able to make an informed assessment of the risk involved.

Those who use it for productivity would be able to create much more content for all involved. Those who tried to game the system would only be able to get away with it for a short period of time.

It is not a novel idea there have been many large scale uses of the current utility of shares. ISS, internal operations, etc… However, the main glass ceiling that is hit every time is the lack of Historical data that is available for the consumer. This creates an unknown oppurtunity cost. Which in turn makes a proper assessment of the ROI fuzzy at best.

Just simple data as shown before would create an entire new mechanism for economic growth and content generation.

I have personally participated in almost every aspect of EVE. What makes it all interesting is the PVP. Nothing can get your heart racing like a true PVP engagement.

People in 00 have always complained about the lack of participation from empire to 00. CCP has tried over and over to create content that motivates players to engage in the Null Sec game play.

Motivations for people in this game are very different. However, the factor that plays into EVE’s lack of EMPIRE players wanting to venture out to NULL has always been creating their own path.

Most players hit a wall of gamestyle, RL, and ISK. A simple fix as this would create an avenue that could expand the content for everyone in game. It would also stay true to the core tenant of EVE which is Risk vs. Reward.

Like many of us We all love this game. Or we wouldn’t have invested so much time and effort into it. However, When a small group like us can amass trillions of isk it can create a log jam between older pilots and newer pilots which lead to stagnation in the game. There has to be a fix in game play that can create a bridge to ignite these motivating factors in the New player base.

We know that 00 is where the majority of us reside because of the difference in content generated. However, If EVE is to have any chance of staying relevant it will have to find ways to bridge the gap between New and OLD players.

This is just a simple addition that could significantly help in doing just that.

(Merin Ryskin) #11

The problem is that new groups are the only people who need to sell shares. Remember, what is the point of selling shares in the first place? Raising money when you have insufficient assets to do so any other way. If you’re an established business with consistent revenue and a record of stability you don’t need to sell off part of the company and pay out a bunch of money to random shareholders, you just spend some of your income on whatever you want. The corps that would have the most need for shares and investing would be new corps with very limited revenue trying to get the startup capital (freighters, etc) required for their business plan, and they obviously wouldn’t have any record of success or dividend payments.

In short: if scams are not common it will only be because nobody is using the shares system.

(Krysenth) #12

Um… many corps do so when they want to make investments who’s cost would exceed their income in a given timeframe. If it’s going to take me 6 months of income (also not accounting for everything ELSE it has to cover) to move on something within 1 week before conditions change and it’s worthless to invest there, I’d rather not be 5 months and 3 weeks late.

In EVE, you have people with established operations, market or otherwise, who decide they want to spin up to the next level of shenanigans. They’ll do an IPO and sell shares (while buying their own as well) and use that for their investments.

(Merin Ryskin) #13

Yes, I get why a corp would want people to give them money to upgrade their operations. My point is that it’s utter lunacy to expect that corp to repay a loan or give any return on an IPO when there is zero incentive to do anything but take the money and run. Why would you voluntarily give up some control of your corp with voting power and make regular sacrifices of profit to pay out dividends when you can just say “thanks for the money morons” and pocket all the ISK? There are only two situations where you’d ever have any incentive to do anything else:

  1. If you’re a large, well-known, and very trusted entity whose good reputation is worth more than the potential profit from taking the money. In that case, sure, if you do an IPO with the promise of dividend payments you’re going to keep that promise to keep your reputation. But entities like this tend to already have access to vast amounts of ISK, so what exactly are they trying to fund that they can’t already pay for? You’re talking about spending development resources on a one in a million edge case scenario that may never happen over the entire remaining life of the game.

  2. If you’re very early in the growth stages and planning a second IPO/loan/etc that requires honesty with the first round of investment to establish the trust that will secure the next round and allow you to reach your real goal. The problem is that once you reach that second round of investment you’re right back to the situation where you have zero incentive to do anything but pocket the ISK. Investing in something like this is like giving money to the Jita ISK doublers, hoping that you’re the early guy who gets their ISK doubled so you tell everyone “this one is legit” and not the guy who is throwing away money with no return. You’re giving money to a known scam and hoping that somehow you’re not going to be the one getting scammed. Does this really seem like a reasonable thing to do?

Now sure, you might have a very few roleplayers who are dedicated enough to their character performance to ignore the pure profit/loss numbers and actually execute an honest IPO, but they’re going to be absurdly tiny in number compared to the scammers. Is it really worth spending development resources on a stock market that consists of 99.9999% scams and maybe a single legitimate (though poorly paying) investment buried somewhere in the clutter where nobody will ever find it?

(bodycollecter) #14

If you are able to make investments that turn a profit and payoff your investors. Then both parties benefit. Which is incentive to continue payment. Or you can ad a feature that gives project shares. And shows a history of profits made from shares. Total investment etc.

It may not be for everyone but for those of us who have utilized this utility in game and have an understanding of the current limitations. It’s not hard to see this aspect change could really change the gameplay for in a positive way.

This could act as a catalyst for wars for resources. If x group loses their space due to xzkl and g’s group attack.

Then j investors could coordinate a program to fund said war for either taking back said space or new space with prospects of profits to be made. This in turn can keep x group pilots funded also bring profits for investors. And helps keep retention of activity. Can be used in many other aspects for bolstering the flow of resources to and from. If x group doesn’t stick with plan then investors can take a loss or hire guns to enforce. Either way is a content driver.

(Merin Ryskin) #15

But why do I want both parties to benefit? My goal is my own benefit, I don’t care if my investors ever get any money. Why would I voluntarily give up my profits and hand them over to someone else when I can just ignore the debts I owe, transfer all of my assets to a new corp, and take all of the money for myself? So I can get future investment? I don’t need future investments if I keep all of the profits from the initial investment to myself.

(bodycollecter) #16

you would be welcome to do that if it is your goal. But anyone who understands the benefits of a macro economic situation like the one presented. Would be an ignorant to do such a thing. as it would hinder your own economic growth and expansion capabilities. Those who understand the benefits of the system would be the ones who obtain a credible reputation. Those who don’t would lose out on an amazing opportunity for economic expansion and other great benefits. Just as those who switch sides in combat for economic reasons. Those who don’t produce in an investment market will have their investors switch to other opportunities offered by competitors.

Is the nature of Risk Vs. Reward.

(system) #17

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