How will pirates that hunt you down affect PVE?

Communications Center General Discussion
121

What a stupid reply. Where did I say anything about EVE or PVE dying?

The ‘big deal’ is CCP wasting it’s time when it could be doing something that is actually effective and that maybe even makes them more money.

The lesser deal is that what CCP is doing threatens to spread to other forms of PVE.

I really really appreciated CCP Larrikin’s reply to me in that thread, but as I got to thinking about it even more, it started to concern me because he didn’t really demonstrate he understood what I was talking about. Specifically:

We understand the importance of ‘low engagement content’, and we believe we can deliver that while staying true to our push for player-like-NPCs. We can use a couple of different strategies at lowering their power level. Low skills, poor tactics, bad fittings, providing you with allies or handicapping them in other ways.

The PVE we do now (missions, complexes, anomalies etc) isn’t “low engagement content”, it can still kill you if you do’t pay attention, and most of it isn’t soloable by some dude in a VNI with heavy drones. We are in many cases very engaged with the content, and making our own in certain ways.

No one is looking for push overs/easy content. The null anoms I do every night can still kill you, or help you get killed if one of the NPCs points you just when a neutral comes in.

The challenge is finding new ways, faster ways to do them, or finding ways to make them make you safer (which is why I learned all the triggers in Forlorn hubs, when some player attacks me I just over-spawn the site and roll the dice on whether the npcs kill me or the other guy 1st).

CCP is concentrating too much on NPC behavior and not enough on site design and things like environmental effects. The current ‘dumb’ npcs are fine.

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122

Exactly, CCP focuses on the wrong issue. To foster group content and PvP-training for highsec players it’s cheap of course but not enough to just make the rats more PvP-like.

The real obstacle is the tooling and support for building casual groups!

If you rely on PvP-like player organisation overhead for new content, this will compete with real PvP (no PvPer would ever bother with this) and ISK/h of those who have to lead the fleets.

Finally there is no “in between” content, because novelty wears of faster than the next patch is away and what remains long term is ISK/h. This may sound depressing, but this is how EvE works. Most people don’t seek a real challenge in PvE but income. Challenge is provided by PvP … and shouldn’t it be that way in a PvP-game?

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123

I wish that CCP would have gone down this development path ( or one like it):

  1. Resort to the old tried and true method of creating new missions by having them developed by programmers directly; i.e., the way they did it 10+ years ago. This has the benefit of not adding any new or untested method to the game and would definitely be along the same vein as the current missions. You wouldn’t have to add a large number of new missions, just enough to create some new content.

  2. Develop a mission generator that uses the old parameters to create a large number of new missions, all of which would be tried out on SiSi and weeding out those missions that fail to meet standards. Devs would then inject the approved missions into the mission pool on Tranquility. Missions would be “set in concrete” like they are now; no dynamic missions , just a large number of new missions.

  3. Once the mission generator has its bugs worked out, slowly implement it on Tranquility. Perhaps something like one out of 15-20 missions are created just for you and are rather unique in nature. No aggressive AI, yet.

  4. Increase the mission generator to create around 33% of all missions offered, while adding popular missions into the mission pool on a permanent basis to increase overall mission diversity.

  5. Add improved AI to some of the missions and slowly increase until all missions have the improved AI.

  6. Have a small number of missions (<5%) need (perhaps) a second player to assist. There are plenty of current missions that state in the mission brief that the mission may be too tough for an individual and that a player should ask for help. However, I have never actually had to do that. All high level mission runners recognize their fellow mission runners in their home constellation; perhaps an occasional pairing up would replace the o/ or o7 that gets exchanged.

  7. Use the content generator once “debugged” to create new exploration/escalation sites.

I’m afraid that the current plan may crash and burn on implementation, resulting in CCP wasting thousands of hours of development time on something that most players are not really asking for in EVE. You don’t have to have a radical change on what has been working for EVE over these many years to make a large improvement in PvE. CCP always seems to want to overreach to fix an issue; simple changes may suffice.

124

There is always room for more variety. Variety in repeatable content is what makes many players stay and continue and most importantly, be more active. But as I said, adding variety in content will do zip if that content is not accessible (or completable) by a large chunk of players.

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125

You make this point when CCP took as I demonstrated earlier at least 4-5 years to sort out the ‘old’ pve system into something you like, and CCP has been working on this stuff for less than 2. ie in fairness they should be allowed to iterate through this, because the existence of this stuff ticks a lot of external boxes for people considering playing the game.

  • serpentis paramilitary (ded 7) trivial in vni - damage from last pocket won’t apply before your drones reach the web tower, its low hps, and after that you’ll be away at 100mn speeds. All the other pockets are more or less like ratting a sanctum.
  • serpentis fleet (ded 10) need to bring wardens for a 60km refit + depot for the vni in the last pocket, but the trap can’t catch a vni - the other stuff all trivialised by 100mn.
  • serpentis prison camp (ded 8) - myrmidon can now escape the web trap because of MJD, now harder because drone trick doesn’t work to turn reps off, but can get a fleet mate to help turn reps off, or can bring a 6 damage mod, blasters, void and med shield booster + depot to kill the tower with if true solo. Yes it takes 25 minutes, but its 80m guarenteed overseers box + loot.

IMO the same combination works in gurista space, just the 8/10 vs 10/10 ship requirements are flipped, and not only that, the super valuable 6/10 can be done in a regular vexor (just time consuming).

More likely to get killed undocking a blockade runner in jita imo, and when they allow alphas the new skill set, the alphas will be able to complete all of this content for at least a couple of the races.

Aye but there is no need for CCP to destroy that game, and other pve remains reliant on the loot that drops from ded rated encounters - in fact given your confidence in their ability to meddle with content, I don’t really think they should - ie I think if they keep developing it, they’ll make you unhappy at some point.

They have a vast library of stuff out there already for solo pvers.

126

There are 2 ends to the renumeration mapping.

The one end where its done by the minimum number of omega players in the best ships to mimimise formup time etc, and the other end where its done by the maximum number of alphas.

obviously one end of the spectrum has more choices about content and isk/hr than others, and the other end (alphas) are more willing to fleet to gain power.

127

I think that the game needs some core concept changes before improved AI can become a source of fun for the players, and unfortunately it’s impossible to change the game so drastically at this point.

  1. I think that the idea of defenseless industry and transport ships is no longer working in today’s META, and the NPC rats hunting barges and transports will outline this even more. It’s really easy to gank barges and transports, and a large part of it is because they are paper-thin defenseless ships. CODE is providing quite a bit of content (and playerbase reduction); add the NPCs to it and the numbers will plummet. The game is not balanced for “fun, interesting combat” in mining or transport ships, so this improved NPC AI will only lead to frustration. I think CCP needs to reconsider the idea that mining and transport ships need to be defenseless and not armed just because they are industry ships. If they’re trying to encourage combat in a combat game, then all ships need to be able to do combat, with resource-gathering, industry, and transport capabilities being secondary.

  2. High-sec, low-sec, null, and wh-space offer strikingly different gameplay, and the playerbase is also clearly separated into high-sec, low-sec, null, and wormhole players, but there is no such division or focus with the ships. You don’t see anybody comment “oh, that’s a high-sec-only ship”. There’s a forced limitation for capitals to not enter the higher-security spaces, and CCP has imposed size / mass limits with the acceleration gates leading to deadspace pockets, but I’m not seeing any indication that they’re balancing the ships “for high-sec, for low-sec, for null, for wh space”. I think that’s a mistake if they’re trying to entice people to move out of high-sec into low and null; there’s no ship progression to persuade them to do so.

Both of these are changes that will ruin the game for the current player base and the current doctrines / current player organization, so we’re pretty much stuck.

128

All PvE content gets farmed in high sec. Everything. Even the low level combat anomalies like “[faction] Refugee” get farmed by all kinds of players. They have like 100.000 ISK total bounty …

People will prefer incursions, but …
a. they require a high amount of SP and big ISK investment (from a new players perspective)
b. only a limited amount of people can run incursions at the same time

A few years ago, when incursions were more popular, it was not uncommon to wait 3 hours to get in a fleet. (Many people cant even play 3h in 1 session …) On some days, you couldnt join a fleet at all because there were too many people with better fits and more SP in the queue (they get picked first).

129

They’ll adapt. They always do.

130

Yeah, but do you know why? Because they have chance of a profitable escalation! Nobody, except some newbies, cares about the bounty.

… and Incursions, you say it, they were more popular … because they are not run by the typical highsec dwellers but alts of nullsec people, which have better income sources now.

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131

They’re the low-end scratch off lotto tickets of Eve. Probably just a piece of paper in the trash bin for most people, but they require minimal investment and occasionally they lead to a larger prize.

132

I have heard mention that pilots with low standings towards Blood Raiders will automatically be attacked by these new NPCs.

I have not been able to find any information to confirm this & which specifies at what level your standings need to be to avoid this.

Some of my characters (used for LvL 4 missions many moons ago) have terrible standings (-10) to Blood Raiders. Those characters’ standings also drag down my corp standings to Blood Raiders.

Those characters are mainly used for moving freight while in hi-sec.

Does this mean that when I undock with one of these I will instantly be set upon in my defenceless freighter?

133

Consequences, man! :wink:

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134

And that is why I dont bother with ED any more, so boring to have constant “interdictions” it’s like annoying flies who just keep landing on you, your food, your drink, after a while you just stop going to that place.

135

I don’t like it! I want my safe spaces… all these damn space nerds are already hunting us casuals down in high sec space. Now they are sending NPC’s to kill us! This at least better be interesting or I quit…again.

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136

No need for social groups, when in one or two generations enough people have grown up with defense fleets. The LifeBlood PvE expansion is another step towards addressing the difference between PvP/PvE and teaches about working together. Or is supposed to, at least.

With luck, we will see single player PvErs slowly phase out, being replaced by those who will not scare away from player driven content.

137

I hate to say it (because I generally like / agree with most of your posts), but I think you’re spending a little too much time in fantasy land there, human nature being what it is people will always prefer not to PVP when trying to generate ISK & will always find ways to avoid (or at least limit) it if they want to.

To be clear it’s only the …

… bit that grabbed my attention I’m commenting on, you might reduce their numbers but I doubt you can ever kill em off entirely, but I’m sure you’ll have fun trying :wink:

138

May I ask what weed your are smoking? :wink:

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139

You two lack vision and foresight. :slight_smile: Of course there will always be solo PvE players. There is no doubt about that! Still, the direction is clear and new folk will join. Those who are stuck with the old, or do not wish to play the new stuff will either leave eventually, or stay.

The single playing PvErs will eventually have a hard time staying alone, but by then they will have been thoroughly replaced by new blood. it will not be impossible, it never will be, but they are not and should not be the primary audience for this game, because that’s not how EVE can function.

CCP will not neglect them fully, and they too will get their content, but they are not what keeps the game attractive and healthy.

Not a single solo playing miner, or mission runner, ever created a reason for others to join this game, unless he has been the victim. :slight_smile:

It is guaranteed that over time many will leave and only the most tightly bound will remain, leading to a shift in culture again. That’s assuming that the gameplay itself is not a downer, of course.

You two need to set your perspectives straight. CCP is in a position allowing them to choose who (as in, players with certain interests for certain gameplay) they want to play the game, and they make that work through gradual, slow shifts towards who ever they want.

Because people are always leaving and joining, because marketing is marketing, and because history shows that it works, you two need to accept that the only reason why the selfish, ignorant, escapist solo players deem themselves so important, is because they’re delusional.

CCP’s rough direction is super obvious already! The future looks bright! :smiley:

140

You certainly may, Nicotiana tabacum I believe :smile:

Oh, you weren’t asking me :confused: