Short Term and Long Term FW Proposal

For those who are interested, there has been an ongoing discussion for Factional Warfare changes in this Discord channel https://discord.gg/cSe6btF

Seeing that there is a lack of agreement on many ideas, I am going to reiterate some of mine, list those most often mentioned with commentary on their downsides, along with a FW proposal list for quick fixes we can see very soon, their impact and longevity, and important issues that require more time but cannot be ignored.

Neutral presence inside the warzone
Many pilots have proposed heavy penalties to player structures anchored within Factional Warfare space. Non-FW entities are highly reluctant to agree to being inconvenienced by penalties such as increased fuel costs for Upwell structures or cyno inhibition. We remind many that FW space fills a greater part of the most often used lanes between Nullsec and Highsec, with another healthy reminder that there is a vast portion of lowsec that is under-utilized and scarcely inhabited. We remind others that stations continue to exist and that it is Upwell structures themselves that are interfering with the docking restriction which they completely bypass, further deteriorating the importance of geography, markets, and home field advantage.
Suggested changes:
*increased fuel costs to neutrals and reduced fuel cost for faction structures corresponding to system ownership.
*No docking on any structures for hostile FW pilots; docking restrictions apply to stations AND Upwell structures
Cons to the first is that neutrals will eat a higher cost for structures placed on moons that should, in all respects, be fair game. Cons to the second are that one side will not be able to effectively defend existing structures after a system flip. An asset that could be much more valuable than the system itself.

Front lines and Defensive Plexing
Lowering contested values could probably be done in a better way than the passive non-interaction time sink of dplexing, which doesn’t require anything besides hanging in space within 30km of the beacon. You don’t even have to have modules on your ship. We keep on attacking things which are used (stabs), and not questioning how senseless the core idea is behind some of these things. My proposal for dplexing is this:
For each adjacent system, contestation will be reduced 1% every hour. For every hostile adjacent system, contested values of each FW objective increased by 50%. It could be anything, but what it adds is strategy and that is always good. You just have to keep impact on behalf of player activity higher than any kind of bonus that is passive in nature. Require npc clearing for either offensive or defensive plexing.

Complex Timers, impact of variation, and as non-FW hostile ground
Reduce the timers by 25% for all size plex. 7.30 minutes for novice; 11.25 Small; 15 Medium; Large 15m. Scale value of each complex by size to deter the impact small and novice complexes have on a whole: Novice .4%; Small .7%; Medium .9%; Large 1.2%. Making a Large worth up to four novices. Cap or buffer should remain 2.0%. Flag neutral non-FW pilots on acceleration gate as suspect upon gate activation. Since we are likely to not ever get gate sliding back, we might as well piggy back on the warp core stab check and add the non-FW neutral check to it. Lastly, the implementation of Dual-Timers as a better solution to the popular rollbacks. What is essentially two different timers, one for defensive and the other for offensive ticks. Solving the age old problem of bloated timers that encourage abandonment and conceding of some timers. Instead of an unsatisfying tug of war that could have no end in sight, you have a time-frame for every plex that is at best twice the length of time without factoring in the frozen state during pvp activity, giving everyone involved a sense of progression with closure.

Missions and the current tier system
At the moment of writing this, FW missions receive a bonus by tier level towards the amount of LP they reward on completion. They normally would give anywhere from between 25,000 to 30,000 LP a mission. There are around 10 or so level 4 agents which you could visit and request a mission from each one. The mission will expire in 12 hours without suffering any loss to standing. You will lose standing if you reject or quit the mission only, which can sometimes be worth it if you get one you don’t like and want a re-roll. This unholy union with the current tier system has elevated missions to a disgusting proportion that can reach payouts for each mission up to 97,500 LP in tier 5, which awards a bonus of +225% over the original amount. These bonuses apply to every LP payment, from completing complexes, destruction of iHubs, to pvp kills.
So. We have multiple options in bringing missions into balance. One is to see a rework to the tier system which bring them down to no higher payouts than 30k maximum, regardless of which side is winning or not. The other is to require the agents to request an item from the pilot and in exchange they will grant the FW pilot one mission. CSM Steve Ronuken suggested a token of some type. I ran away with this idea and encourage the agents to require the dog tags from the npc’s that are cleared in the very same complexes within the warzone. Each complex rat drops, consistently, a different rank of tag. Tags gained from a novice site should give access to lvl 1 agents; tags from npc’s in smalls could grant access to lvl 2 agents; tags from Mediums for lvl 3’s and tags from Large rats will grant lvl 4’s. Each rat drops a single tag, with the exception of the Large npc, which drops 2 different distinct tags. The result being that the Large complexes would become more valuable and the outcome will be more fights in a plex which can produce the most interesting and dynamic content. This last change will have the desired affect of reducing the amount of spamming that these missions see in their ability to be chained in succession in a long mission running circuit after visiting all available lvl 4 agents, with tags being a limiting factor. If we have the agents request 5 of the tags that are gained, you allow about one level 4 mission per Large that is completed, which sees anywhere from 5 to 7 spawns.

You’re welcome to visit us in the forum to discuss the ideas of,

  • complete deletion of mission content (CONS negative impacts on breaking some loyalty store items that rely on the tags that are inside these missions and unanticipated fallout of an unrecoverable tier deterioration for all sides)
    *4v4 faction war (CONS to RP allegiances and periodically rare occasions of cross-faction aid support)
    *front lines
    *no pirate ships in noobie FW complexes (CONS for many pirate and special edition ships that have mostly only been seen being used inside the warzone)
    *making the iHub an upgradeable structure
    *No upwell structures inside the warzone, replaced with new faction structures that are corp owned and limited to 1 per system that takes the place of the Infrastructure Hub and inherits vulnerability states by system contested value
    *fixing pvp LP payouts at the current +225%
    *(Post Script) Currently corvettes, the likes of rookie ships Velator, Reaper, Ibis, and Impairor, cannot activate the complex timers. This same restriction should apply to the Venture.

In conclusion
The ideas presented here that I feel can be achieved as quick fixes in the immediate future are:
[Tags for Missions], which should have the greatest impact on FW tier manipulation and LP devaluation, [fixing pvp LP payouts at +225%] and [docking restrictions applied to all structures].
The rest, unfortunately, I feel will only come with further and deeper work when FW finally has a spotlight for dev time.

3 Likes

Approved with no reservations by the Cardinal of Chaos.

These fixes would leave the warzones in a far better place, help retention, and ultimately help FW lowsec become a more engaged community.

CCPls implement these as soon as possible.

No. FW zone is a low sec. If someone want to live in that part of low sec as a neut , he should be able to do so freely, whithout punishment.

You answered yourself, why this is a no go.

Do not make complicated what is not need to become more complicated, IMHO. Unfitted ships in def plexes can be countered with 2 NPC in PLEX - one hostile and one friendly. The unfriendly one will chase you all over the plex if your ship is not fitted to clear that plex from NPC.

Shorter time in plex means smaller time window for hunter. Not sure it should be implemented that way. But large plex should make bigger impact to soverenity flip, than smaller ones. Thats for sure.

Yes, as was suggested many times over and over again.

Just remove missiones all together. Put better tags into plex NPC wrecks. Missions are no content maker and FW low sec must be all about the content.

RP is a matter of how many? 10-20 players? Opportunity to give aid support… not sure it is an issue here.

Yes, but navy ships should be still alowed.

Why? Null sec stuff in low sec? Who will upgrade those iHubs in systems, no one wants atm? I am not saying ‘no’, I just do not see much reasons for that.

Nope, as I was stated already, if someone wants to live in FW low sec, he must be able to do so. We need more people there, not less.

Yes, if we remove missions all together that can be goons way to tedios LP farming

I am missing suggestion to divide all high sec empires with FW low sec zone. So you can not get from Jita to Amarr without leaving high sec.
Make both Kimotoro and Gallente border constellations FW zone.
Give militia members map tool to see, where enemy sits in plex atm. PLEX must be able to alarm friendly militia “I am being attacked”. At the very least on a constellation level.

1 Like

That would definitely improve the markets of each faction.

incursion style constellation chats would probably be helpful if it replaced local or auto joined for each pilot. Constellation chats already exist, they’re just not used.

And thanks for the feedback. I’ll look into some of those other points after I get back from the bar.

Fully agree. Right now missions give nothing but a level of carebearing unequalled in the game.

2 Likes

I haven’t ran any FW for a while but what would be interesting and fun is if enemy faction NPC ships chased you around the system, similar to how the Drifters do sometimes. More PvEP engagements to tide everyone over between the big PvP engagements.

The biggest future fix would be combining the 4 warzones so that you can fly directly from Gallente space to Amarr, Minmatar, or Caldari space without having to go through highsec or non-FW lowsec. And in restructuring the map so that this can happen, it would be imperative to create multiple entries in to each region’s space so that you don’t get stuck with 24/7 camp that cuts the map in half like on the Pyne/Hikko gate where people just safe up on the citadel at the first sign of danger. There would be also a handful of “no man’s land” systems scattered throughout the warzone that cannot be captured by any faction (they tie into the 3rd fix below).

The second biggest future fix is the creation of a non-capturable strong hold system. Put a non-destructible station; i.e. a faction HQ, at each respective faction’s entry point into the warzone. This system and station cannot be captured as it will act as the fall back point if a faction gets steamrolled out of the warzone. I’d take it a step further and beef up the gate guns for that one specific entry point system’s gate from highsec into lowsec (it doesn’t make sense a faction wouldn’t beef up the defenses to ensure a safe route for it’s fighters to enter the warzone). It’s a great way to get new players into the warzone and its gives everyone a base to regroup and reform after things have gone south.
*The station would ideally be a 1 off (devs only have to create 4) mega station who’s structure represents each factions specific design with beefed up station defenses since it’s an HQ.

The 3rd biggest future fix would be the creation of a FW front line that affects the capture of surrounding systems with a N+1 (can adjust the modifier if 1 is shown to be too constrictive) feature for plexing and capturing systems. For example, system A is owned by Gallente and is connect to systems B and C. Gallente pilots would only be able to capture B and C. Once B is captured, it would unlock all connecting systems to system B to be captured. The front line forces pilots to meet and fight to capture systems. The “no man’s land” systems would provide different access points for each faction to get a foothold elsewhere if efforts are stalling. It forces groups to interact with each other and does away with the army of AFK plexers in back water systems. It also means groups can take a break and roam the warzone again without having to worry about every system burning 24/7

Those 3 fixes are super big projects but would add the most ROI on time spent making it work.

1 Like

No for reasons posted above.

Especially important, low sec is not the personal property of faction warfare. Too many of the ideas affect non-FW players.

-1

2 Likes

My own wishlist, no particular order.

  1. No pirate frigates in novice plexes.

  2. Plex LP is awarded based on time contributed, not who is in the Plex when it finishes.
    a). I am far more likely to take a fight if I don’t lose 100% of my invested time. There are plenty of times when I’ve put in 50%+ towards a Plex timer and I avoid a fight because I don’t want to lose my LP. If I could get my share of LP, assuming my side takes the site, I would take a lot more fights.

3). Neutrals are flagged when entering plexes.

  1. FW players get a discount on navy ships.
    a). Ships purchased with the discount cannot be traded/sold.
    b) The discount increases with player FW rank.
    c) If the player retires from FW the ships become unuseable.
    d) Perhaps do the same with faction modules.

  2. Scale NPC presence in Plexes with the Tier system. Tie the tier system to number of systems controlled.
    a) A faction with Tier 5 will have weak NPC defenders (Faction is spread thin with a lot of systems to defend)
    b) A faction with Tier 1 will have very strong NPC defenders. (Faction can consolidate their forces)
    c) Higher tiers give more reward but taking plexes is also more difficult.
    d) System upgrades give bonuses but are not tied to tier.

  3. I like the idea of a warfront where only adjacent systems on opposite factions are at play.
    a) If this is done, LP payout probably needs to be adjusted due to consolidation of players. Something better than LP/#ofplayers.

  4. Don’t know anything about FW missions but 3.25x multiplier for tier 5 sounds broken.
    a) Maybe make FW missions a once a day thing so it’s a nice LP bonus but not abuseable?

1 Like

Good thing there still plenty of non- FW systems where you can play. The whole point of the faction warfare is that it is between the factions…not just 1 faction vs 1 faction. Connecting them in a spherical region where they’re all connected improves the gameplay a lot, specifically for FW. If you want to be a pirate in other areas of losses this will have no affect on you.

2 Likes

In theory sure, in practice these suggestions suck.

And why do they suck? You need to provide a counter point for a proper discussion. There’s nothing stopping non FW lowered dwellers to roam through the new FW arena.

1 Like

No actually I don’t, I can post my opinion and walk away.

In the case there is no need, the initial responses pretty much nailed it.

Edited values in this section.

Liberal much?

Oh lol, we have a wacko on our hands.

In my opinion, neutrals/players not enlisted in FW should not be able to warp to any FW beacon, complex, etc!

And end all those pirate v FW fights?

No, terrible idea.

2 Likes

Suggestion #1: give FW player LP if they kill a pirate(-5.0 or lower) in a plex. A reason to fight is good.

Suggestion #2: for each player kill a FW player makes move his timer forward. Even more reason to fight.

Yes, I want you FW guys to stay in that plex and fight me :wink:

1 Like

Most of the suggestions to improve FW would actually just make it even worse. For example deleting missions would make all farmers do fw plexes. And that means they would affect the occupancy of systems. Long time ago you didn’t get any LP from plexes and system occupancy was 100% pvp content, no farmers or bots.

The actual problem with the system is that you can farm LP easily with alts when faction is high tier and convert LP to isk when low tier. And have alts in each militia to maximize this effect. Concept of “winning” in this system is broken. You win by losing. The harder you lose the faster you get the LP value up.

Secondary problem are the heavy restrictions FW gives you. For example can’t dock in enemy systems. Any non-FW group has none of these restrictions so FW groups will be in serious disadvantage if fighting neutrals. That means you shouldn’t join FW with your pvp main characters and should do it with alts. And you can still dock in enemy highsec which is kinda silly.

Third major problem is that plexing system heavily emphasizes flying frigates and destroyers. Long time ago FW was a place where corporations slowly grew towards bigger ships and became stronger in PVP. You don’t grow stronger in Eve flying only frigates. I haven’t heard about strong FW groups in years.

1 Like