I don’t believe that the fleet you described actually existed, or if it did that it was what it seemed to be to you. That is correct. Even if you were a credible source, which you are definitely not, the scenario created is implausible. Either our empires are fighting an incredibly boneheaded and obvious shadow war, or something else is going on that causes so many capsuleers to report exactly identical incursions by the empires against each other. The latter seems more plausible to me.
On the scriptural issue, your disdain for me causes you to make a serious misinterpretation of my statements. You are correct that currently the Amarr duty as given by God is the reclaiming. It is one of the oldest scriptural commands. Much of Amarr Society is designed around carrying out that mission. If you say that the reclaiming is a mistake, you would get in rather a lot of trouble. If you say that God has the power to end the reclaiming, you would not.
It is not our “most” holy duty. The most holy duty is obedience to the will of God. Period. After that is obedience to the Emperor. The reclaiming is subordinate to those, both historically and in primacy. This is not a controversial statement in any way. The existence of multiple books of scriptures that predate the Book of Reclaiming, including the now defunct scripture outlining the Council of Apostles, is established fact. Samira is outright incorrect when she said that the reclaiming is the reason for the Amarr Empire. The Amarr Empire existed before the Reclaiming and exists to serve the will of God. The current form of the Amarr Empire, however, is heavily based on the mission given to Amarr in the Book of Reclaiming.
But the will of God is primary. The scripture is the recorded word of God. God is not silent, so the world of God is regularly updated with new revelations of divine will, some of which supersede prior divine revelation as the plan of God unfolds. It seems unlikely that the Reclaiming will ever be ended save through completion, given the timeless language in the Book of Reclaiming, but it is certainly a theological possibility. It is entirely possible that the language is the way it is for reasons that are best explained by the historical context. The word of God is absolutely correct at the moment it is revealed, but when conditions change it is often updated. Basically, without being God, you cannot know the purpose of the specific language in the Book of Reclaiming. When you declare it to be irrevocable, you place limitations on God, which is a deeply problematic thing to do.
Respectfully, my lord, there are enough Minmatar who have vouched for this happening over the years, and could provide additional evidence from their work for Minmatar corporations, that one can’t really say they’re all lying.
Now, it might be there is something suspicious about it all, but the evidence presented is hardly outside the bounds of credibility. Maybe it’s a shadow war, maybe it’s a false flag to divert attention (though even if the forces were not true Imperial and Caldari Navy, and instead groups masquerading as them, there is enough of a market to keep them in business, which still suggests wrongdoing at home), but they do surely happen.
Well, his point that God could give orders to the contrary stands. Just the likelihood of that is so low as to be essentially a non-factor.
Yeah, you’ll have to forgive me if I don’t take the “God is omnipotent and thus can technically countermand their own commandments” nonsense seriously as an argument. Gravity on all planets could fail as well, out of nowhere. Not exactly something we reckon with or use in argumentation. Your argument has now had its goalposts MJD’d quite far, going from the implication that of course the Reclaiming can be ignored as a reason to consider the Empire a threat. We can change! Then to equating this clear, timeless and unambiguous commandment to the Acolyte council nonsense, and now suddenly to “well technically it’s not entirely in the realm of impossibility that the Reclaiming could somehow sort of maybe not entirely finish the way it’s stated.”.
Quite the leap from:
Aaaand you want me to think this isn’t intellectual dishonesty from you?
As far as sources go, so far I’m a damn sight more credible than you are. On both sides of this fence.
The Amarr Empire was founded to cultivate the spirit of mankind. Book I. The Reclaiming is not explicitly named and defined until the Book of Reclaiming, but it is the purpose for which Amarr was created.
Cultivation of the spirit of humankind is not inherently the same thing as conquering all of humankind. The Reclaiming is a tool used for higher purpose, not the purpose in and of itself.
To do so, the enemies of without had to be defeated, and the enemies within controlled. Bringing all creation, dispersed and distant from God’s Light, into wholesome unity with Him, in flesh and spirit. This is the Reclaiming. As we seek to Reclaim those who have fallen, we also seek to Reclaim our own spirits, defeating our inner demons and bringing ourselves closer to God. War, slavery, diplomacy, proselytization, hardships, these are tools, but the Reclaiming is the purpose, the Reclaiming is the cultivation, because to Reclaim is to bring closer to God.
The means and several of the prerequisites have been made very clear, and she hit those right on the money. It should be disturbing that a Minmatar is so much better versed in the Scriptures, and more accepting of what they say, than you are.
Not to be unforgivably pedantic[1] but… isn’t the Reclaiming itself ‘the cultivation of humanity’ in all its forms? ie: slavery, war, diplomacy, long talks while totally baked on really smooth weed, persuasion by living as examples of virtue, doesn’t all of it count as ‘the Reclaiming’?
It kinda seems like you’re arguing that only Reclaiming by the Sword counts, and even Mitty’d dispute that… and really, I’m pretty sure ‘by the sword’ is pretty much her favorite way to do… everything.
… which makes me really wonder about how she nursed her children, now that I think of it. Yikes.
Note the qualifier there! Unforgivably! I’m not claiming this isn’t pedantic!
The scripture is huge and complicated and often contradictory, Mizhara, anyone claiming to know it all who isn’t a very old theologian is committing a grave error.
In this age of injectable skillbooks, I’m not really sure that’s a valid argument. I mean, theoretically, someone could get the combined learning of thousands of theologians distilled down into a skill book with a time multiplier on the order of say, Amarr Titan…
I don’t know of anyone who has, but you know, the argument of ‘that cannot be possible’ is kinda weak coming from a guy who based part of his own argument on the idea that God’s omnipotent enough to reverse his own infallible decisions.
After all, it’s entirely possible within your framework that God could grant Divine Inspiration and impart full comprehension of all of the Scriptures on someone, no?
Ok, this one might be getting a little more pedantic than intended, but it amused me.
Arrendis: The Reclaiming is the mission of bringing everything under Amarr control. It does not cover the control of the enemies within, for example.
This is getting far afield, though. The primary point is that old scripture is regularly contradicted by new revelation and nothing except eternal obedience to God is truly unmutable.
The cultivation of the spirit of mankind is achieved through defeating the enemies of the outside and controlling the enemies within. The purpose of the Reclaiming is to defeat the enemies of the outside (the apostate peoples and their rejection of God) and control the enemies within (errant belief, sin, and disorder, imperfections and weaknesses in spirit, as found in slaves and the conquered, criminals, the weaker of faith, the corrupt and heretic, and the lip servers).
That would seem to directly contradict statements often cited about Reclaiming oneself… and that the Reclaiming is, after all, Reclaiming to God. After all, the Amarr make no claim that all of humanity once lived in harmony under the Amarr. In fact, they claim most of humanity persecuted them and drove them off into exile, right?
So if they didn’t have dominance originally, how could they reclaim that for themselves?
As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea; As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf; Yet all under Heaven serve Me; So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens. *- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming, something:something-something:something
I mean, that right there, seems to be the critical thing, right? It’s not reclaiming humanity for Amarr at all.
All this quoting of the same handful of famous scripture quotes as if they are more important than the other million or so books is kind of fascinating.
It’s like you cannot help but imagine Amarr as immutable, so you fixate on the few famous bits you think that you understand.
“The Scriptures” do not simply contain theological arguments.
And I am not just meaning things like the Technical Scriptures, which embody the entire scientific and technical output of the entire Amarr Empire.
You see, The Scriptures, contain not only the theological arguments made by various persons throughout history, but also the historical context in which those persons made those arguments.
The Book of the Prophet Anoyia, for example, contains the primary statements made by Prophet Anoyia, such that reading those statements is enough for the lay person.
However, there are accompanying volumes to the Book of the Prophet Anoyia. Historical volumes, biographical volumes, that put the Prophet’s statements into their proper context, such that full understanding of the Prophet’s statements is achievable.