What ECM and cores have to do with ganking?
I wish people would quit referencing that dev talk in regards to player retention. It’s data gathering technique at that time was less than accurate, as it’s sample size was such a small percentage of the overall number of players who quit. Most players who quit a game do it with a bad opinion, anger, and disappointment which leads to either refusing to respond to an exit survey and/or admitting that the game was too “tough” for them. Answering the question “Did you quit because you lost your ships?” tends to have either no response or, more likely, a response along the lines of “no, your game just sucks”.
Now, CCP finally got around to better analyzing their product with the addition of much better data mining ability and their marketing/player retention group started a more aggressive and detailed look at why EVE had such dismal retention numbers. As Brisc said, the data and numbers were shocking and warranted immediate changes. Getting the CSM and CCP to agree on anything now days is somewhat rare.
So, the continued insistence that PvP loss has NO effect on player retention is not correct and relies on old, less than accurate data. The amount of influence it does have is certainly debatable, since CCP has refused to share the rough numbers with us. However, since CCP has begun making changes in the way certain PvP action is handled following their implementation of new data mining abilities, the two seem linked.
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From what I’ve read those dismal retention stats are actually fairly normal for the freemium/f2p sector of the industry; it’s a malaise that affects the whole market, not just niche products like Eve.
I agree with you. I do. I linked that data because Kezrai claimed CCP saw players leaving and thats why hi-sec PvP was nerfed for crimewatch. This just isnt true. True for the latest wardec nerfs, but not true for EVERY OTHER hi-sec pvp nerf.
On top of that some of the information @Kezrai_Charzai is referring to is just as old and just as faulty as the information i have linked. And on top of that, since CCP acquired these better data tools they took a look at the economy and the state of risk/reward and decided it was broken and in need of a massive overhaul. They also decided destruction was way underperforming and gave ganking a very nice boost.
Kezrai’s claims are simply inconsistent with CCP’s (improved) data and their goals.
Just an honest question; what are these?
Fair enough.
I at least think that CCP is getting the correct raw data in the amounts they need.
My problems now are:
- wondering if CCP can correctly identify the worse problems in the game accurately.
- asking the right questions they need answered to make their decision
- requestioning the correct data to debate/solve a problem.
- devising a good/fair/efficient change in the game.
They tend to stumble over all steps of the problem solving in the past, although they seem to be getting a better handle on identifying the problems now days. Step number 4 is always the biggest hurdle for them.
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Well, the obvious ones are WD nerf, acitve resistence nerf, station core requirements, and the high damage ammo buff. Not all changes were PvP centric, but did effect it to varying degrees. This seemed to indicate that CCP wasn’t against PvP per say, but against certain types of PvP. They are trying to increase distruction and loss, while not angering and losing players who feel the loss. Their attempted changes don’t always solve the problem; sometimes they even compound existing ones or even create new ones
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Fair.
Or, you know, almost like CCP stopped releasing expansions, didn’t follow Crimewatch up with anything, and left vast sections of the game broken with almost no news about updates. That’s what led to drastic reductions in player activity, not Crimewatch.
You’ll note that the numbers around that one, single “PvP leads to retention” myth you guys keep harping on, were so fuzzy, so filled with qualifiers, so excused with statements like “well it was sort of the difference between 49% and 51% so not really significant BUT…” that CCP did not even publish any of the numbers. It was a crock meant to keep the “Eve is all about PvP” myth alive so the PvP suckers would keep playing.
It’s basically as valid and useful as the other retreat your group keeps falling back on, when we use the data to prove that PvP in EVE is a minority activity, and you go “oh no you misunderstand, everything in EVE is PvP”. In which case there’s really no problems with carebears and farmers then is there, since they’re out there "PvP"ing all day?
Every MER, every QEN, all the login stats, and CCP’s own published breakdown of player activity supports my position. What have you got? “Oh I looked at the situation for a long time and the answer is now obvious to me” seems to be your strongest argument.
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Compared to not releasing the data at all… 
This is really just a “the (lack of) numbers and statistics perfectly fit my personal view a narrative” from both sides, using the same (lack of) numbers.
It’s tiring, manipulative and quite probably wrong. Something something statistics.
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Your posts are misguided and uninformed. You site no proof, no statistics, your reasoning is backwards and based on personal bias. We get that you do not participate in PvP, we also get that you don’t think others should be able to participate in PvP at your expense. I also understand that you THINK PvP is the problem when in fact you are completely wrong about all of this.
We’ve offered you proof and statistics of which you have had none. I offered a graph with explanations from Null Sec that coincide with my experiences from High Sec, showing the drop in players coinciding with the fall of immersive PvP content. Others have shown you CCP responses that refute the entire basis for your argument yet you keep pressing it because you refuse to admit that you are quite simply wrong.
You have no leg to stand on. You’re not a PvPer so you have no first hand knowledge. You post from a position of anger and ignorance.
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Ah, yes, the old “I don’t like your facts so I’m going to pretend they’re not significant, and the other side has opposite facts too”. Well, except they don’t. Feel free to link any actual published facts, anywhere at any time in the history of EVE, that show PvP activity is even as much as 25% of in-game activity.
Since it is much, much quicker to destroy 1 Billion ISK than it is to produce it, one would think it’s easy to show this. But it’s never happened.
Here’s some more “actual facts” for you, because clearly, you aren’t aware of what the actual facts are:
That’s the Quarterly Economic Newsletter from Q4 2010. It’s 99.5% about the player economy. It shows 80% of the players are in high sec. (Do you think most of those players are in high sec for the PvP?) It shows rapid economic growth in Null regions.
It has one, exactly one, mention of PvP in the entire report: “Nanite Repair Paste is used extensively in PvP by all types of ships, regardless of weapon types.” It’s just a footnote on the economic production.
They even use this quote at the top of the report:
“In the words of Ernest Hemingway: “There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who
have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.”
Keep on hunting your enemies – it is good for the EVE economy!”
And yet no actual data or comments about PvP are included. Sure, it’s the ‘economic’ report but one would assume that the key, milestone feature of EVE rates more than a footnote economic reference.
Unless, of course, it’s not the key feature, and all the bafflegab about PvP is just smoke and mirrors to string a tiny fraction of players along so they keep the rest of the game relevant. If EVE was actually properly designed for PvP, CCP wouldn’t need to obfuscate the numbers and nerf it to keep up the pretense.
Just as a side question though, what exactly is it about “EVE needs to make PvP more engaging and accessible so more players take part in it?” that you find so objectionable? I’ve been unable to get an answer about that as yet from one single PvPer. Perhaps you could take a stab at it.
Just try not to follow @hellokittyonline 's example in the post above this one, where they display a complete disconnect from reality ("You site(sic) no proof, no statistics, despite multiple links) and that they’re completely unable to even understand the content of my posts - quote: “I also understand that you THINK PvP is the problem when in fact you are completely wrong about all of this.”
Hopefully you can manage something a bit more coherent.
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I have been a part of the greater PvP community in this game for 10 years. I EXPERIENCED the decline in players FIRST HAND. You are disregarding all of my experience because it does not fit your narrative.
AND AGAIN. You have sited NOT A SINGLE STATISTIC. Where as on the other side of the conversation we’ve sited not only statistics but posts from CCP themselves that refute your claims.
You could not be more wrong. The economy IS broken, and destruction IS good. The player-driven-economy that you get to enjoy would cease to exist with out the sinks created by PvP. You cannot be allowed to freely accumulated wealth unhindered. You actually have already been allowed this freedom for far too long. You mistake this privilege for a right and now the privilege is being balanced and adjusted as it should be.
You may note I didn’t post directly below your post. As said, both sides do using the exact same numbers, or lack thereof.
And it’s very possible and probable that both sides are wrong, where the real answer is either inconclusive or somewhere in the middle.
Having said that the whole premise of this thread is mistaken, regardless of stats and numbers. Simply put: pvpers need targets, pvers need to sell their produce and gains, which requires destruction and thus PvP.
It’s a closed system, we need eachother 
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Sorry, but multiple references have been made and linked, multiple sources cited. I think the one you missed is maybe this one:
And if you’d like the link for that it’s https://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/activity.16.png
The stats are well known, the QENs and MERs have been published for years, not sure how you’re missing them all but they’re only a google away.
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Those statistics only further strengthen my point. Players aren’t ABLE to engage in it is the problem. All the nerfs to suspects and small gangs over the years have made the PvP system almost unplayable. This has to change. CCP needs to buff PvPers.
Furthermore, the economic numbers tell the same tale. People are too safe, I can remember when plexing your account was 200mil a month. Now it’s 1.8bil a month. This insane amount of inflation is due to one thing and one thing only. Overly safe PvE with rewards that far outweigh the little-to-no risk required to participate.
Have you ever played WoW? I played Classic for a bit. Do you know what their economy looks like? It is completely broken. Botters control the resources, RMTers control the market, and costs get to the point that no new player can compete. We’re getting pretty damn close to that point in Eve online and that 13.8% you’re talking about is the EXACT reason why.
PvEers have got to accept that they have to be a target. Doesn’t mean you can’t operate profitably, but it does mean you can’t be allowed to hoard wealth with impunity. It’s actually FOR YOUR OWN GOOD. If everyone is rich nobody is rich because the market adjusts and prices simply go up.
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CCP could clear this all up in a single post, but they dont.
Do they love reading this stuff over and over?
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Lets look at my situation, not counting this account as it’s new and in the process of being populated and used.
- I have 3 omega accounts, all character slots are used
- Only two of those characters are actual pvp chars, one for low sec and one for null
- I have one actual PVE char that makes/PVE’s my income
- All the other chars are either trade/asset management chars in trade hubs, one asset manager in my low sec entry point of choice and a bunch of hauling alts.
Those trade alts, haulers and asset managers are technically PVE characters but in reality they are PVP support chars that only sometimes log in to do a specific task.
So even in my case, where I deem myself a PVP player, only 2 out of my 9 characters are technically PVP chars, percentage wise that’s 22%. And that’s not even counting my alpha accounts I use for “various stuff” which would be counted as PVE characters while, again, they really are pvp support chars.
PVPers also have PVE chars, PVEers do NOT have PVP chars. That in and of itself already means you can’t just compare the numbers and draw a conclusion. Especially because many players, including PVPers, do PI (which I don’t) which takes up even more character slots and thus skews the numbers even more.
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Don’t tell me you’re actually expecting CCP to read their own forums, we don’t have an active community manager and none of the devs actually post much outside one dev in a very specific thread where he mostly went “right, uhuh”. If anything they’d read Reddit.
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