The events in Colelie, and why do the Feds sometimes seem patronizing

Now look here, Diana, I don’t know what kind of reverse psychology you’re playing at, but stop agreeing with me. It makes me feel dirty.

And the Brutor flying for the Amarr is a great person to judge that, eh? Waxing poetic about the ‘great ideology of Gallente enlightenment’ while actively fighting against that enlightenment in order to support a system that sees him as nothing more than chattel to the Empress’s whims.

Try flinging your poisonous barbs at other ears, dog. We’ve enough of a wedge between the Republic and the Federation now, we don’t need you trying to earn your golden collar.

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DISCLAIMER:
I really do not take sides in this conflict. I am happy more than enough if both sides will just slaughter and murder each other to their heart content. After all, they are all enemies of Caldari State. And seeing them fighting each other over insignificant detail (or, really, any detail) pleases me. My interest in the issue itself is purely philosophical. I have a small weakness: I like to discuss and rationalize things :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

Then why don’t you answer the bloody comms?

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Because I am planetside and won’t be available for 2-3 hours more. GalNet here works fine, but some kind of atmosphere interference or something like that prevents NeoCom from connecting.

A likely story…

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Wait. HE is flying for US?

… I guess so’s edeity. So’s Mr. Nauplius, technically.

Still, that’s a little odd.

Why accept thinly-veiled collectivism when you can have an actual feudal state, I guess?

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Us, hmm…well I wouldn’t go that far. I have several reasons for flying with Amarr. It’s not odd if you know me. First, I’m interested in their cultural strengths, as a matter of research, and they are willing subjects. Secondly it gives me a chance to slay Republicans. Lastly the pay to party ratio is good and it’s easy, yet challenging work…and who knows if I’m going to bother returning to the Imperium at this point. I am more and more coming to see the elegance, perfection and strength of the Federation as I mature.

Word on the station is that a certain little Holderkin sang in Nauplius’s ear in an attempt to at least make him do some good with his butchery. The Empress’s lowsec is crawling with blood raiders. By the way, what’s up with edeity?

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Uh, I don’t think Mr. Nauplius has ever needed much encouragement to go and murder Matari, pilot. He’s just a touch obsessed.

(“A certain little Holderkin?”)

The Blood Raiders used to actually own that area I think, until the Imperial Navy evicted them a little over a decade back. They mostly aren’t fighting for Empire, though.

And edeity is … uh. So, I don’t know very much, but I get the sense he’s kind of hoping what Mr. Nauplius is: that the Empire will prosper and then flip into Sani Sabik control. He and PIE sometimes shoot at each other. Other times, not.

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Yeah, well I don’t know if it’s true or not, not because of my source, but because capsuleer insanity does occur. Could be random. According to one story if Khanid holdership demands it, and as long as it doesn’t contradict with his own schizoid logic, he does what they say…apparently within a very short time.

Your statement is a bit contradictory. I mean, if they’re in the militia, enrolled in Jamyl’s Crusade, doesn’t that mean they are fighting for the Empire? These Amarr politics baffle me.

I can assure you every other Empyrean I have met seems to be sporting Blood Raider swag. It was unnerving at first, but they havn’t tried to blood me…yet. What do you mean that the Empire will prosper and then flip Sani Sabik?

Edeity gets pretty long winded about PIE, something about religious persecution…

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Classic Minmatar. Acting based on how they think things ought to be rather than how they actually are.

Equal parts admirable and foolish taken on its own. Just foolish when you take into account how wrong they are about how things ought to be.

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I remember hearing the news of the massacre in Caille in which the terrorist gunned down former Prime Minister Midular and fifty eight other individuals, wounding and maiming hundreds more in the process. As an Ishukone citizen who also lost a leader to the actions of a madman, I felt nothing but sympathy and sorrow for the pain and suffering that undoubtedly must have been inflicted upon your tribe by this act of barbarism.

I also remember the Battle of Colelie taking place, after refusals from the Federal government to hand over the terrorist to Republic authorities led to the heated and brash confrontation instigated by the Tribal Council. I recall your post on the subject five years ago realising it was wrong and taking full responsibility for the actions of Electus Matari that day, which is commendable and upholding the standards expected of a leader.

However, I disagree for the very reasons you consider irrelevant, on the basis of national sovereignty and lawful authority that the Federation and its constituent member states hold over their own territory. Recognition of that is the fundamental basis of the political system in the cluster, and to attempt to subsume that order because of a tragedy such as this would only lead to greater chaos, confusion and potential loss of life, which eventually did occur with thousands of Federal and Republic Fleet servicemen and women perishing because of the Tribal Council resorting to deploying an Armada instead of continuing dialogue with one of their oldest allies.

The Caille member state did everything it could to prevent acts of violence from taking place. These were circumvented by the planting of bombs by a lone-wolf which are incredibly difficult for the security services to detect. The claim of blood spilled could be made for the other individuals that lost their lives that day, of which citizens of both the Federation and the Republic could be counted amongst their number. I highly doubt that the citizens of the Federation nor their Senate or the President would have considered the assassination of an individual dedicated to furthering peace and cooperation throughout the cluster, especially one of an allied state, as a minor issue. One that welcomes and accepts a multitude of foreign and diverse cultures would not be averse to understanding why it was a difficult and grievous issue to contend with, even if the ethnic gallente do not adhere to the concept of race and blood themselves. Hence why they respected and honoured the wishes of the Sebiestor Tribe to transfer Midular to a medical facility under their direct control.

However, the Federation also has a duty to protect their own citizens which suffered in this tragedy, and I feel that the Federation was well within their rights to withhold the terrorist and conduct an investigation as it occurred in their territory and under their watch. It is not patronising that the Federal government would consider their authority over one of its citizens conducting a terrorist attack on its own soil is greater than that of an allied partner. It is not arrogant to suggest that the rights of states include the principle that their sovereignty or authority in these matters not be infringed. Whilst I fully understand the grief and anger that must have been present, it does not excuse the indefensible actions of the Republic Fleet in attempting to secure custody of the terrorist.

So no, whilst I do think that the Federation believes themselves as the ultimate force for good and on the righteous path for humanity in the whole, despite other cultures existing and resisting that mandate, I am of the opinion that the Federation was in the right here. It’s important and pressing that dialogue should take place and force of arms should always be a last resort in these matters of foreign policy. Would those that died, whether that is CEO Gariushi or Prime Minister Midular who believed in the spirit of co-operation and peace, appreciate being used as a justification for conflict?

I don’t believe they would.

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Beware. Do not believe her lies.

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In so many ways. They are, after all, the epitome of a totalitarian regime where the individual is only of value as you ascend the ranks of social hierarchy. You were in Karmafleet, you should know that collectivism doesn’t have to stifle the individual. The individual needs only to be prepared to contribute to the society from which he or she is benefiting. The Swarm, after all, is far more collectivist than any of the Tribes, and you’ve surely seen the degree of individual expression and pursuit of individual goals that goes on out here.

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Well, I think your kids ought to be able to grow up in a cluster where they won’t have to worry about Gjallarhorns targeting your estates. But hey, if you say I’m wrong…

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The Imperium is a constitutional monarchy with a parliament and otherwise laissez-faire economics, not a collectivist society. That’s just the propaganda. Nobody would have stopped me from doing whatever I wanted in Karmafleet. No one would have stopped me from leaving. It’s basically the Gallente Federation, but less terrorism running rampant within and without its borders, and more freedom. Why do you think I joined?

Persons want to support their tribe…that’s not collectivism it’s human nature. It’s when it’s legislated by force that it’s collectivism. The Mittani and Merkelchen always relied on us to throw our loyalty at their feet during the war, and we did. We all had a chance to run and join the bigger, stronger blob.

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It’s demonstrably not. Moreover, the alliance you were part of, Goonswarm Federation, is definitely not a constitutional monarchy. It is an autocratic collectivist state. Mittens listens to input from Corporate CEOs in the Kremlin, the Alliance Directorate who make up the Illuminati, and specific individuals within the Star Chamber… and then he makes decisions that are unilateral. And no-one has the authority to restrain him if he chooses not to be restrained. There is no document that outlines his powers and the limits thereof, or outlines the structure of governance. There is Mittens. Nor is he a King.

That is not a constitutional monarchy. It lacks both a constitution, and a monarch. And if you think it’s not a collectivist society, then you haven’t been thinking about either the corporate and alliance tax rates, or the monthly activity metrics that literally every alliance and GSF corporation except 'Waffe are subject to. Did you never see a GSF corp get commissar’d for failing to meet the Suckmetrics™ threshold?

Service guarantees citizenship.

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See, there you guys go again.

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Not wrong, just unreasonable in how to bring that cluster about. Getting better, though.

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. . . by people getting their heads out of their rectums?

I mean, I know we’re going to disagree on the specifics of how that happens, but…

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Lol…like Mittens could be commissared. He’s in charge, and anyone who says otherwise either fooling themselves or has a spin agenda.

I believe democracy doesn’t actually work unless there is someone in charge who can override dumb ideas.