The 'Pay To Win' Myth

I corrected it, because the usage of my, will give him a nonsensical handle and claim that “his” definition is different. Then at that point it becomes a argument of self definition and not the actual definition.

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How much do I need to not be another brick in the wall ?

1 isk

I want to be that brick in the wall so I can be unnoticed.

Pay to win does have an opposite which could be pay to lose!

That’s called “gambling”

this thread is pointless, as always when a topic leaves room for interpretation it ends in nitpicking and insults. it would be really desirable if some could try to look at things a bit more differentiated or from different angles instead of showing their narrow-mindedness and ignorance.

are cosmetics the only thing that can be bought with cash? no

are there exclusive benefits for credit card swipers that cannot be obtained with ingame currency? no (not anymore/not yet)

can money buy an ingame advantage, save time? yes

to sum it up, eve is borderline pay to win and i would stop playing it, if it gets any worse.

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To my understanding the term RMT always and only refers to the other direction ISK → Cash if somebody else then CCP (which is owning all ISK/assets) is doing it. Not sure why you insist on this weird arguments.

Today’s New Eden adventure consisted of jumping through PD nulsec to reach an old stockpile of assets left in an NPC station.

While passing through, I met someone who contracted me something along my way to the station I was headed. I paid the fee, then also made a donation to say thanks.

I had then just now jumped those goods back to Jita and converted them soon to become fuel blocks.

It might look like a pay to win after I send those to TrigSpace to fuel an Amarr Tower but right now the small investment feels like a pay to lose unless I see it all the way through.

Both PvE and PvP can live happily in New Eden and the goes with pay to win sits along side pay to lose in my books!

/adding that you are correct as I did take a gamble as I had not used Black Frog

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What difference does it make who gets the real money?

Don’t get the question. Company sells its product to you, and gets money, normal business. Thief takes this company’s assets and sells for own profit on black market. If you can’t see the difference, then I’m sorry …

One is sanctioned and the other is unsanctioned, a matter of perspective. From a buyers perspective it doesnt make any difference, he bought the advantage for real money


This game isn’t P2W, it’s more ‘Pay to Gain Time’ (I mean you exchange your real time into game time by buying Skill Injectors) or ‘Pay to Gain Opportunities’ faster. EVE Online is very different from other MMOs. There’s no ‘Golden Ammo/Armor’ and there’s no ‘Golden Large Skill Injectors’, which allows to gain all 500 000 SP even if your character has above 50k SP and so on…

I think you intentionally misinterpret what I say in the hope that you then have an argument left. I’m totally fine with subscription games. I paid EVE’s subscription for 10 years and I valued the game CCP produced. People engaged on equal footing when it came to this, you either payed for access to the full game or you had no access.

This changed when they went “free to play”. Now you don’t pay for access to the game, you pay for access to more power. That is just how it is and you know it.

It’s the exact same here. You only have access to certain extremely more powerful ship types and weapons and ammo if you pay. You just chose to ignore that and make a ridiculous argument because of the history of the subscription model EVE had.

Yeah but EVE is no longer pay to play. It is free to play with a paid tier which gives you access to more powerful tools. It used to be pay to play and I was fine with that.

Just repeating what you previously said doesn’t make it true. Botting and RMT is as big of a problem today than it was before PLEX. All PLEX did is legitimize RMT and make it acceptable to cheat by literally paying for advancement with real live money.

No it actually doesn’t. It did for a short time, which is what all this monetization efforts do. But it completely destroyed the game, turned it from a game where people compete by coming up with clever game strategies and team work to advance their wealth and influence into a online shop that is just an empty husk of its former self.

People are leaving and EVE is on a downwards spiral for years. All they have left is milking the remaining sheep who still defend that crap even more, and you are still defending it, making the situation increasingly worse.

And with that the main focus of development is now on how to milk people like you more. Ever wondered what happened to all the expansion that added new mechanics, new space and new things to explore and play with? It got replaced by more skin fomo, more in-game ads to get you to pay for SP, more starter packs and limited time deals.

I still think they could turn this around and revive it, but for that to happen the community has to stop praising and defending their over the top monetization. People like you are the reason we got here in the first place. You helped destroy a beautiful game, I hope you are proud of yourself.

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And yet you pretend that EVE is not pay2win, while at the same time you defend and even demand that there should be a way to skip parts of the game, like acquiring wealth with the credit card. Are you even listening to yourself?

There are a gazillion ways how you can acquire ISK in this game. Running missions and mining are the two most obvious and brain-dead methods that don’t even pay well. It doesn’t take much to figure out other ways and this is all part of the game, rather an important one.

The possibility to skip that step with a credit card simply destroys a huge part of the game that gives everything that follows meaning and weight. It literally devalues the game as a whole, as we have seen over the last decade.

And it makes the game pay2win. That’s just a reality and you can play as many world games and come up with as many justifications as you want, non of it changes this fact.

I invoke Hitchen’s Razor.
that which is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
You’re claiming a lot, yet have presented no evidence to back it up.
Your arguments about EVE now being a free to play game with a paid tier, ergo P2W are fundamentally flawed in oh so many ways. It’s a subscription game with a limited free to play option. You accept the limitations of Alpha when you choose to play as an alpha, in full knowledge that unlocked the entirely of the games options is only a subscription away.
Your arguments are spurious at best, downright deceptive at worst.
Kindly present cogent argument and quit the holier than thou attitude.

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I don’t know why are are bringing this up. There are only about 3 players total (including me) who considers EVE to be pay2win game and they are all playing (oh and plus Lucas Kell but that is a troll and he is now gone isn’t he?).

So basically your “opinion camp” has massive superiority so why do you feel the need to discuss is again?

There is no chance you persuade me because you are simply wrong and all this is just psychological need to justify you playing game which you would never played otherwise. Nothing else.

EVE is undeniably pay2win game.

But that doesn’t mean it is unbalanced, unfair, unfun and bad game. I mean yes EVE is all that, but pay2win is the least of its problems really and the unfairness is basically EVE’s selling point.

See I have no problem with pay2win games. Unlike you and your kind. You do have a problem with such games, you hate them, you criticize them and you would never play them. BUT you choose to play EVE and now because you hate pay2win, you just need to spin it to justify it somehow to yourself and to prevent an internal conflict. In the end even if EVE becomes the most predatory pay2win game of them all, you will still be playing it and advocating it that it is not pay2win because.

Your arguments can be used on any game even the most predatory pay2win games like Diablo Immortal. You will always change the definition of pay2win so it doesn’t apply to the game you play. Go to the forum, if they have it, of World of Tanks and tell them that their is pay2win and you get exactly the same response you get here in EVE.

There are no purists and purists definition. There is only one definition and it never changed → “any advantage you can buy for real money”. It is the opposite, there are defiled definitions created by players like you who hates pay2win but play it so they had to make their own definition to justify it.


This must the the most overused pseudo philosophic coping mechanism on the internet of people who refuse to look at what is basically directly in front of it.

We don’t even differ on what the actual offering is. CCP sells subscriptions, PLEX and starter packs, as well as some items that are only available for PLEX in the in-game shop.

All we have is a dispute is essentially about how to name things.

All you actually do is chose a definition that lets you cope with the reality that what EVE is today is basically the same as any other pay2win game out there. You think that not calling it “free 2 play + payed tier” and instead “limited free to play option + subscription game” somehow alters reality of what they actually sell. It doesn’t. In the end it is exactly the same as what a lot of other games do you use as bad examples.

Somehow you manage to interpret what is basically the same thing in two completely different way for the game you like and don’t. You successfully deluded yourself and then you invoke Hitchens, the irony :rofl:

EVE as it is today is blatantly pay2win. No amount of coping and redefining things will change that. All it does is make the situation worse.

Like an alcoholic, CCP and the EVE community first needs to acknowledge the problem. Once we all agree that there is in fact a problem, the healing can start and maybe we can still turn this game around.


This is just pure ass backwards nonsense. It is still the original pay to play, with subscription, but with a quite limited free trial.

Somehow you convinced yourself that simply renaming things will fundamentally change what they are at their core. It doesn’t.

“limited free trial + subscription game” is literally the same thing as “free 2 play game with paid tier”. The only difference is that one of this description lets you pretend that everything is fine, that EVE isn’t like all this other pay2win games out there you look down on.

It’s pure cope

That’s not how it’s advertised. Are you saying you know more about what CCP is doing than CCP does? Are you calling them liars?

Mr Epeen :sunglasses: