There just comes a point, that one realizes they are dealing with a narcissistic, illogical mess.
And one simply can’t have a meaningful or constructive conversation. They are unwilling to have a meeting of the mind. Unwilling to see, or consider the others PoV. It becomes an exercise in frustration and futility, and personally, I simply don’t have time in my life to deal with nonsense.
Maybe when I get out of prison after serving my multiple consecutive life time sentences in a federal penitentiary for blowing up pixilated spaceships in an online video-game. But until then, these license plates aren’t going to stamp themselves.
I always found this debate funny. im a 2012 vet. biomassed in 21 after provi fell and a week in high sec where i lost more then a decade in null. came back. plexed bought sp packs and injectors. i have more sp now then i did after a decade of +5 training. i find it funny that 120m sp is just a swipe away.
also find it funny anyone thinks sp matters. i can fly a perfect super. perfect rorqual perfect dread and fly an avatar well. i have no clue what to fit them with. but i can fly them. hell i mine. i mine because i make more mining bisdot then triple boxing supers ratting because sp means nothing and mining is something i love. ratting is awful money and a waste of time. at the same time my fc dies inside when ask him if i need stront. or what ammo i should bring. to witch the answer is aways the same. all the stront you can fit. and all the ammo you can fit.
this is like i did t2 dread guns and t1 seige. and half my alliance had a stroke trying to explain it has to be the other way around. i had people in tears dm me because id done that. but like? the fc said it was fine to sub t2 for t1/meta so i did. this is the same as i don’t put fuel in most of my caps because its a waste of money to fuel all these things that never undock anyway.
Maybe ppl forget that IRL
time == money (if you have familiy, friends who don’t play EVE, pets etc and ~0/24 time to play EVE) Count me here
Youngsters who haven’t established themselves in RL obligations space yet, ie. have ~24/7 time to burn on EVE, may not see that
time != money
because they have a lot of one and ~none the other. So when they see somebody who skip the time gate line with money they screem P2W!
Aquire a financially successful career! Build a network of influential friends and double your salary every year! Don’t be a miner! Be a marketing director instead!
Maximize your personal ISK / hour!
Time and effort invested in to eve is not the same as time and effort invested in to flipping burgers. Separating them ensures a leveled playing field which is a requirement for a fair competition
Many EVE players believe that only they can think and many EVE players think that only they can play EVE Online. If vanity was a currency, many EVE players would be gazillionaires and if being abnoxious and mean was a sign of royalty, many EVE players would be emperors of the universe.
In my opinion, Skill Extractors / Injectors was the start of P2W.
Case in point:
IronBank
When the idea of Skill Extractors / Injectors was first presented, it was for players to re-train their characters by moving skillpoints from unused skill groups into other usable skill groups. They were supposed to be for character use only.
Course CCP realized they could make much more $$$ by turning them into tradable items which, with the addition of Alpha Clones, gave way to SP Farming which in turn boosted the use of multiboxing Omega accounts.
At first everything was sorta ok because those SP’s were created by real character training. Then CCP tried to implement SP Daily Tasks, the community went berserk and it was removed with the promise of never happening again.
Then SP’s were added to Event Log-in rewards, some didn’t like it but most accepted it since it was just for Events, free and available to all players. Eventually CCP implemented the Daily Log-in rewards and added small amounts of SP’s to it, players complained more about the T1 BPC’s and basically just ignored those SP’s since they were low amounts and again, free to all players.
Eventually SP Daily Tasks were once again implemented in-game and basically accepted since it was free for all players. CCP then started selling ‘Special Offer’ SP packs under the premise that returning players could quickly ‘catch up’ with their skill training.
Around that time they also implemented the NPE ‘Opportunities’ with various tasks that rewarded SP’s and ISK. That eventually was re-worked into the current NPE AIR program which rewards ISK, modules and SP’s.
Course it’s free but it’s all part of mind-set conditioning being done over time. Anyway…
Lo and behold game / SP packs were implemented and now CCP advertises it everywhere, on their web site, on the Launcher, in-game, etc…
Sorry to say this but the P2W Dam was broken a long time ago with the implementation of SP Extractors / Injectors. That turned into a Flood of Daily Task / Log-in rewards which has resulted in the Tsunami of ‘Special Offer’ and SP game packs currently hitting this game.
And let’s not forget the latest P2W outrage by the playerbase, that Armor booster in the Amarr Event game pack which CCP quickly removed… for now.
I don’t understand the uproar over P2W. The game is tied to corporations whose sole purpose for existence is profit. EVE is tied to the real world by its owners, the players and the currencies it accepts in return for entertainment and challenge. Real world mindset rules EVE even though the lore is set to refers to a far future in a galaxy far far away but the economy is very much 21st century and Capitalism is still alive, just like in the real world where money is power, power to buy thousands of dollars worth of Skill Injectors to try and dominate an Online game.
The problem isn’t P2W. It’s the amount allowed. Limit the amount a player can buy per account and the problem is solved but why would a corporation limit its earning potential? Capitalism dictates MOAR. EVE’s market needs moar and the players demand moar content and CCP need moar mulah to keep existing or there’s no moar EVE.
If we cannot even agree on a definition of the term “P2W” (or “Pay2Win” or how else one might say/write it), there are little point in discussing if it applies to EVE or not. I would define it as:
Definition “Pay2Win” or “P2W”: “Gaining an advantage in a video game by purchasing items, such as Vehicle, Equipment and/or Ammunitions, from a, usually in-game, Cash Shop that cannot otherwise be acquired in the video game by other means that does not require the player to spend real money.”
Searching though the internet there are many varying definitions, most seem to be too broad a term, on what exactly it should be. As a gamer’s perspective I feel my suggested definition above is more narrowly tailored, and not too broad, to what the “core” meaning of the “P2W” term actually mean regardless of the video game or genre of it.
By this definition EVE is not “Pay 2 Win”.
@DeMichael_Crimson I’m pretty sure that devs, some of them at least, does not like having to resort to such monetisation of the game and more likely something that have come down from the top (from investors - Pearl Abyss). Just as CCP would like to keep the game and development of it going, so too do I believe we all would like to continue playing.
As such, I’m fine with there being ways for players to close the SP gab between Rookies and Veterans of EVE.
Should you be able to use PLEX to pay subscription on accounts?
If you ask me, I don’t see any issues with this as all it does is changing who is actually paying CCP for the account to be Omega. One player buys PLEX from CCP and sell them on the in-game market to get some ISKs, another player buys the PLEX off in-game market and uses it to pay subscription for their account. CCP gets paid, Player 1 gets ISKs and Player 2 gets their subscription extended/renewed - a triple win situation in my eyes.
Yeah and then you obviously chose a definition that “mostly” doesn’t apply to eve. It’s the same thing for every game, people will set the definition for p2w so it doesn’t include their beloved game.
No I did not; I searched the web and looked at all the various definitions and concluded that ALL were so broad that they would be applicable on every single non-single player game that have come out in the last 2 decades. That is not a “definition”. A definition should be narrowly defined to describe it’s meaning and purpose.
@Karak_Terrel I challenge you to make a list of 20 video games that you know of, or just search the web, and apply my definition to each of them and see how many of they change from “P2W” → not “P2W”. I’m pretty sure that 95% of the games will not change from being “P2W” using my definition of term.
Would you consider XP boosts, you get additional XP (percentage) over a limited time, as “P2W”?
The problem is not, and never has been, the ‘definition’ of pay to win in terms of ‘gaining an advantage’. No, the real problem is the sheer number of people who simply don’t grasp that advantage exists in Eve regardless of any ‘pay’ element. Simply having more time to grind than anyone else is an advantage. Thus there is advantage built into the very process all the anti P2W say should be the only one being used. That is the sheer irony and absurdity of it all.
There’s a sort of cognitive dissonance that prevents the anti-P2W warriors from seeing this.
As long as they have a fast align time. And I don’t see why ships couldn’t break down. NASA’s Space Shuttle suffered 2 catastrophic accidents and it never even went to the Moon.
