Why do traders have to cough up all the isk sinks?

What are by far the largest isk sink in the game currently? Brokers fee’s and sales tax.

Compare September with July:


Why is the tax so overwhelmingly put on traders? Why did other isk sinks and faucets see no change at all? Why is something that produces no value, namely the mere exchange of already existing goods punished so hard? Why weren’t the fees on manufacturing, insurance or bounty payouts changed instead?

The maximum tax is a whopping 10(!) percent. If you buy and resale an item ONCE at this rate it has already lost 20% of its value. It is cheaper to have the citadel were your goods are stored to be blown up then to make a single resale. Even with max standing it is still over 5. Of course everyone sells and buys, but the traders are hit disproportionately hard.

Yeah yeah, I know what you are going to say. Adapt, blablabla. The reality is citadels have ■■■■ volume for selling and its just monopolizing more power to the big guys.

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agreed

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It would be less, but lots of trading happens…

Keep in mind that everyone who sells anything on the market pays those fees as well. Miners, mission farmers, LP traders, rat loot, industrialists, PI farmers - it all goes on the market at some point.

It’s the obvious point to put in an ISK sink. EVE does need a bit more ISK sinking and it should be spread as evenly as possible across game activities. If you can suggest any other type of ISK sink that applies roughly equally to everyone in the game, then do so.

Traders pay less than you think, the higher taxes are compensated by higher spreads. Traders are only interested in the price difference, which adjusts in an ideal market.

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Manufacturing, removing (or just nerfing) asset safety, reducing faucets such as insurance.

It’s not the obvious point to tax because it is not the point where value is added or destroyed. Value is added during manufacturing. Stuff like rat loot also adds value, but the entire activity of ratting is already supposed to be a faucet.

Sounds a great place to tax people who aren’t contributing to creation or destruction.

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Increased taxes and broker fees on the market already work as increased cost for manufacturers if you buy your materials.

Asset safety IS an isk sink

has already been done. Bigger ships have lower relative payouts when insured and destroyed.

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Nah. Everybody buys and sells. Not everybody uses asset safety, or insurance. You missed this point:

probably because you’re a trader who doesn’t want to pay fees, and just wants somebody else to pay them for you.

Market fees only look high because something like 700 trillion gets traded in a month. This is in the range of 100 times the value of any other economic activity (mining, ratting, production etc.). In fact by that measure, since 100 times the value gets traded, but markets only sink about 15x as much fees as other activities, than market fees should still increase 300% or more.

Market traders are getting the easy ride to wealth in the game, no interaction with the rest of the game, for comparatively speaking the least risk and lowest operating expense.

Stop whining, start paying up.

@CCP, more market fees please!

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Those y mentioned usually just instasell the loot/ goodies , Wich gives them about 2,2- 2,3% depending on skills . Traders are tied to the both broker fee and sell taxes Wich can be around 6% not counting the buy order tax.now with great skills. But I think if raise the industrial tax industry will be almost undoable , cause production costs ,hauling, etc and price are very tight.

Yes AND on every other transfer of goods which have nothing to do with manufacturing

Yes, so increase it?

Trading that is worthwhile and not just 0.01 isking everyone else requires an actual brain, which is why everyone rats instead. It requires a large amount of capital to be truly effective and the risk of financially ■■■■■■■ up is a lot more real than the “risk” while mining under your super capital umbrella.

I could process a lot of thought about all this but look at it this way, in a game where working up from the bottom means constantly undercutting the competition to make every single isk you can get to try and move ahead of the grind in the future…

Imagine if there were no fees, no risk, no ultimate cost of doing business…the end result would be everyone doing a ton more of trading, flooding the markets and pushing the value of items down and down constantly to their absolute most worthless value just out of the necessity to try and undercut the other guys.

Example:

If an item is worth only 1 isk and someone lowers their price by 0.01 isk and thousands of players do this just once then your now all selling at 0.01 isk and have no way to undercut each other. The need to provide a profit to cover the cost of doing business is the incentive to keep the value of your items up, which requires knowledge of the market’s behavior and the capital to invest and patience to wait for long term returns.

Players who sell ore and minerals probably understand otherwise they would practically be throwing it all away for free just to get out of the business in the first place.

Everything changes on the market constantly, the demands, the supply, the need for isk sooner or the ability to wait for it later, prices going up and down, capitol to invest, necessity of dumping assets and moving in and out of business in different sectors of the market.

It isn’t about just 0.1 isking, it is about knowing how the market operates and adjusting your behavior accordingly.

Yes, please. End the low broker fees on structures. Reinstate broker fees on structure markets. Keep them lower than NPC station taxes to allow for some profiting but make it impossible to have 2-3% difference on structures.

what eve needs is a asset wipe, now amount of isk sink is going to keep up with the grinding that happens on a daily basis. even for alot of items we have so much stock we could probably go for years with out any industry on some ships and modules because theres so much sitting in hangers of people that run indy alts galore.

if you tax something im just going to grind more isk to replace the fees and have more isk than i need to buy anything and than ill just keep grinding even more isk for future use, there buy putting an even bigger stockpile of isk.

i know a asset wipe is extreme but if you say we are going to wipe isk, everyone will just hoard and than they just have to wait for people to get the isk to start buying again. A asset wipe would require rebuilding all of society again from the ground up but you still have all your SP.

The issue isnt how much you tax, its how much and how fast you can grind ISK, compared to other games theres not much of economy excet on player made goods and the materials to make those goods which has to be farmed which is a paltry sum compared to our Eve Economy which has a much smaller base of NPC provided goods where the majority of your ISK would go if eve was like other games.

At the same time our economy is what makes us unique compared to others as its something around 90%+ player made and provided goods but the ISK needed for those goods just come from thin air with no finite amount and than stays in the system and taxes only work if you go to buy something which is than dependent on how much you buy, spend more isk and more isk vanishes to taxes.

Another idea like another game i play is past a certain amount of moneyi have to pay accountant fees, however i bypass the account fees by hoarding goods in my warehouse because the accountant fees can quickly add up to being being more fees than profit you can make a day. Currently if i liquidated my wares I’d have like 300k accountant fees and i only make around 100k profit a day.

How does removing an ISK sink increase ISK sinks? Dude…

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ISK sinking is any aspiring market traders goal, to acquire massive sums of net worth in holdings and sales on the market to hold up continuous profits ongoing daily and into the future. The ability to hold much capitol and assets without the need to spend or sell it except when absolutely necessary or to the greatest investment and profit at those times.

This often can mean having to hold assets for very long time with the risk of their value changing both to your benefit and loss with very little control over unpredictable changes in the game that can cost a massively invested trader tens, if not hundreds of billions in value to the assets they have yet to even sell and even further loss in the actual value of the profit gained from selling them in the first place. In some cases even losing out on what you initially spent investing into something long ago to a degree you will never completely be able to cash out on even to recover those costs except without losing much of the capitol you put into it in the first place.

I have no complaints about the market fees they serve their function as intended and anyone with enough experience in the market can easily manage paying them. It isn’t supposed to be something easy that everyone can do from scratch with no experience or wealth to invest.

The risk is always there whether you can manage it or not things will happen completely out of your control and operating expenses are always ongoing, sales activity and profits are never guaranteed as much as the risk and expense of continuous trading.

Say what you will about the market and economy but it is the heart, blood and veins of this game at the end of the day nothing else in this game can be done without it. Yeah, you can be self sufficient but you still need to first buy things before you can acquire materials and build assets yourself and ISK is still required in many ways to anything else you can’t simply do yourself for “free” at the cost of only time and effort put into it, which again, trading does require much of even when your doing absolutely nothing it takes a lot of time just simply thinking about it and often the more time you put into it like that the more you get out of what your actually doing.

Or, maybe I don’t know anything and you are obviously in the know about these things I cannot possibly understand your heightened perspective of.

Please enlighten me. I always value anything that can show me where I am wrong and improve myself by.

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They don’t. Traders build taxes into their pricing. It matters to traders the least.

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Manufacturing goods requires ISK you know. Destruction of those goods requires more ISK spending to replace them.

That’s not how Asset Safety works though.

You pay ISK to an NPC entity in order to pull items back out of Asset Safety. That’s an ISK Sink. No player ever gets that money, it just disappears off into an NPC’s wallet.

Spending ISK to replace something is NOT an ISK sink. That ISK goes into the pockets of another player who was selling those goods.

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