There’s kind of a feeling that this board’s a terrible pit of sneering, bitter toxicity and “shiptoasting,” Dr. Valate.
I think lot of the more notable Amarr are avoiding it.
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Now whatever could have given them that idea.
That is the language of apathy, Aria, of standing and doing nothing about evil. Or ‘injustice’, if you prefer.
You say the Empire’s been changing. I say you’re deluding yourself. There’s only one Great House that wants to do Reclaiming by sword? The things I’ve read from Ardishapur say otherwise. The fact that the Imperial Navy does do Reclaiming by Sword says otherwise. The Navy isn’t the purview of a single House, is it? It’s serves and represents the interests of the entire Empire, doesn’t it?
And yes, I’d call Vak’Atioth a profoundly persuasive military argument by the Jove. And the Empire seems bound and determined to prove military arguments are the only kind it listens to. And no, Aria… I wouldn’t expect you to recognize the evil in your tolerance and support for the murder, rape, and abuse of billions.
Tell me again how you think that’s a good thing, though? Tell me again how you think supporting that is a good thing?
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There is nothing to rebut. It is likely correct.
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Okay. So …
If you think all-out war with the Empire’s going to be even a step towards ending slavery, you’ve got a lot of grief coming, Arrendis. The Caldari won’t just stand by and let you destroy their ally, so this is going to be at least a four-party war (and if the Caldari get the sense that the Matari are pulling ahead in a tech/industry race with the Amarr they’ll be a big complicating factor there, too). Good time to settle all the scores, right? Only, no, it’s not, because the most likely real winner of such a war is the outer powers, almost all of whom practice slavery. You will not be able to talk the Caldari around with a “but slavery” argument; their basic position is that the Federation is the greater and more immediate threat, and they’ll cross that “Reclaiming” bridge when they come to it, which is not yet.
Likely outcome: the peace that began at Yulai ends for good. The cluster descends into a period of bitter acrimony and armed struggle. Slavers descend on battlefields and isolated settlements to engage in “human salvage operations,” make lots and lots of ISK, and, if anything, proliferate like crazy. Frankly I’d expect to find Republic politicians making backroom deals with the Angel Cartel (one-stop shopping for basically anything, or anyone, you can buy or sell) at basically every turn; war is profitable, the Cartel has money, and the Republic has a little history of trouble with corruption. Probably they won’t be the only ones with that kind of problem, either.
Really the possible nasty permutations are too many to count, but I don’t think “justice” comes out ahead. Even if you somehow win a pretty clear-cut victory, there’s the point that Sani Sabik seems to be kind of the Amarr error state, so whatever rises from the ashes after the Empire’s fall would probably be … pretty dark. What’s more likely is something really messy none of us can presently anticipate; turmoil’s like that.
On balance, plunging the civilized cluster into chaos is probably going to be a bad thing. To the degree I’m political at all, consider me pro-civilization, which in this case means pro-balance of power and maybe even vaguely pro-status quo, CONCORD weirdness and all. I’m okay with incremental changes; actually, those are the only ones I’m inclined to trust very far.
Oh-- also, if Sansha’s Nation turns out to have the power to seize the upper hand, please just shoot me if you haven’t done so already. I’d seriously rather be dead.
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We Matari have been grievously (and likely irreparably) wronged by the empire and that legacy continues to haunt us and demands justice no matter how the imperial apologists attempt to frame the argument. The fact that they invaded and attempted to conquer a peaceful space faring civilization that did them no harm cannot be argued or justified.
War is coming sooner or later so long as the empire remains on its present course and holds tens of billions in forced servitude and refuses to renounce its theology of racial superiority and “reclaiming”.
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There’s a difference between having to accept a political status quo out of pragmatism and realpolitik and simply being an apologist for slavery in the Empire.
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That doesn’t answer the question, Aria. How is tolerating systematic murder, rape, and abuse a ‘good’ or ‘just’ act?
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A lot of very nasty deeds have been done in the name of pragmatism and upholding the status quo.
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Yes, because politics is a dirty business. I’ve flown with people allied to Sansha’s Nation, Blood Raiders, and others that might be described as the worst humanity has to offer out of pragmatism to achieve my own objectives. I have never defended them as anything other than reprehensible; and that I am equally reprehensible.
Frankly, if you’re going to defend and uphold the reprehensible then don’t try and cloak your intentions in some kind of false nobility like a craven cuckold when as with something like Imperial slavery it’s apparent what it actually is, and the impacts it has upon the indentured.
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… hm. I guess I didn’t quite answer. Okay. I’ll keep working on this, then, though I’m not sure you’re going to be satisfied with anything I could say.
Actually, that’s not a bad re-starting point.
For good or ill, Arrendis, you and Miz have something in common you don’t have in common with me: you identify as Matari, and identify the Matari still held by the Amarr as “your people,” so this question is personal for you. You can sense the depth of Miz’s feeling every time she speaks.
“My people” have their own context, and the Amarr are our allies (though you might think otherwise from the words coming out of Veik’s latest mask. I guess she’s maybe trying to win points with someone by being anti-Amarr? It’s not like criticizing is something Caldari have really shied away from, anyway, though). So let’s start there.
For certain personal reasons I can’t go home to Achura, so there’s that. The Caldari (and the Achura for that matter) have certain feelings about the half-blooded, so there’s that. I don’t seem to be exactly cut out for the Caldari mercenary lifestyle (at least if I don’t want to follow in my predecessor’s footsteps), so there’s that.
I’ve secured a place here for myself, with our allied power. I work with and for someone I respect and admire deeply, whose judgment I can trust, and whose role in my life from back when my oldest memories were from like a month ago has been nothing but positive. I’ve taken a position as her aide and agent. It’s a position of trust, and one a person with my frankly pretty checkered history has reason to be grateful to have.
I’m a killer, Arrendis. I have taken lives to earn my living, and I’m not especially sorry about it. Words like “good” and “justice” tend to sound pretty foul coming from me, so I’ll stick with practical arguments. “Integrity” matters to me, and I do try to live by the virtues I believe in: humility, moderation, curiosity, compassion. But I leave high principle to people with high principles. Big ambitions seem to wind up with battles like yours, where people die by standing in the wrong cubic kilometer.
This is my home, my place in this world. I’m not ashamed of it. I’m proud, maybe sometimes more than is really healthy.
I’d rather pass through this world like a shadow, leaving never a ripple, than splash through it leaving a legacy of tumult, even if I thought I was doing good stuff in the process. There’s no escaping that I have a role in all this, but I don’t mind if it’s a small one, or one that people of strong belief consider unproductive. It’s my place in this world, my part to play.
So I play it.
Slavery is something that happens around me. It’s a little bit at arm’s length most of the time; the Praefecta is a commoner, and I don’t work with or alongside slaves. It’s part of the background of everything that happens here. It’s not a deed done, or a series of deeds; it’s more a part of this place’s reality. Necessarily, to be here, I have to accept that presence.
So I do.
Probably that seems wrong to a lot of people.
That’s okay.
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A lot of very nasty deeds have been done in the name of high ideals and upholding justice, too. And where pragmatism’s gone by the wayside, they’ve often been done foolish and/or futilely.
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So as far as you’re concerned, murdering millions in the name of expediency, inflicting physical and emotional trauma on them for economic gain, and repeatedly having them raped—physically and culturally—for no reason other than ensuring you’ll have more victims to mistreat… that’s in-line with your virtues, like… compassion?
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I’m not anti-Amarr, just pro-truth. While they might be rapists whose history is replete with embarking upon the criminal enterprise of war, conquest, and slavery I’m sure there’s some good people among them.
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The virtues don’t exist in isolation, Arrendis. Ms. Tsukiyo’s curiosity is really kind of inspired, but you might notice things can get tense between us. (I was in a kind of dark state of mind during most of that, though; I wonder how I’d feel now? … probably I’ll find out.)
Humility and moderation usually argue restraint when it comes to political stuff. Curiosity wants to know more. So I compromise.
Around suffering people, there are often a lot of chances for compassion, and a lot of ways to show it. Compassion for the suffering around me is what had me associating a little with Mr. Nauplius. … trying to ease a source of suffering.
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… I actually don’t think you’re very anti-Amarr. You’re not the other thing either, though, Veik.
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So it’s compassion for the suffering around you? The stuff in your immediate perception?
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You’re the one who said it, not I. I’m just aware that the Empire, in their foreign relations are nothing more than opportunists and that prior to diplomatic talks with Heideran, there was a substantial movement within the Empire seriously considering attacks on the State. The only things that prevented an attempted Reclaiming of the Caldari was the Minmatar rebellion, the possibility of a Federal counter-invasion, and the State military that would have made such an endeavour a costly one in any reasonable calculus. The Caldari-Amarr Declaration of Friendship is a non-aggression pact, not a formal treaty alliance or even a mutual defence pact whose sole purpose is to allow the State to focus on the Federation and the Empire to focus on the Republic.
There is a reason not a single Caldari naval or Corporate military vessel was to be found fighting the Drifters during the Throne World invasions – the State is under no obligation under treaty to defend the Empire by an outside aggressor. There likely will not ever be a Caldari/Imperial MDP at least insofar as the notion of defending Amarrian soil with Caldari blood remains an unappealing prospect – particularly with a potential “Ally” who would gladly stab one in the back if they think they could get away with it.
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I see the debate on the Empire’s practices yet rages. Do let me know if anyone who matters comes to some conclusion.
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I might, if you mattered enough to notify. Now, your hair on the other hand… that can expect to be fully looped in. 
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