Orlon Zashev is a symptom of a disease within the Empire

And that disease is Unrighteousness.

Zashev and his ilk, are lawbreakers and criminals. Their activities go against everything that Emperor Heideran VII (may his soul be at peace) stood for, in terms of galactic peace. Zashev and those who do business with him and his kind, pollute and undermine the relationships of the Empire with the outer worlds, which goes against everything that Emperor Doriam II (may his soul be at peace) stood for.

Those who do business with the likes of Zashev, corrupt and make a mockery of the Reclaiming, and insult God, making them doubly if not triply Unrighteous, for which they will be Judged.

The Empress Jamyl I (may her soul be at peace) stated that God told her the age of slavery was ending, and those who deal with the likes of Zashev insult her memory, and insult God who gave the Empress her vision.

Thus, the Righteous must shun Zashev, shun all slave traders, shun all who purchase or sell slaves, and shun all Holders complicit in the counterfeit slave trade. Shun them all.

Only then shall the disease be eradicated.

Lest ostracism not be enough, I also intend to use my influence with the Empress Catiz I (long may she reign), to bring about the eradication of the tumour in the Empire.


So we are to assume you lost the bid then? You could’ve said it in a shorter manner.

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I would wonder how you could reach such a bizarre conclusion, but it probably involves wonky Nation brain-nanite logic programming, and that’s just not a topic I am interested in.


Miss Dougans,

Very interesting ideas as well. Our current Empress supports the institutions of slavery and has said so. Even in the Providence Marches slavery is legal. Yet, despite our backwater home slaves have rights as well from abuse and cruel treatment.

Slavery has also brought about a way in which god can come into the hearts of so many more people. It allows some to have better health care, food, shelter, and job stability than what they would of had if they never of come under such conditions.

Also I would argue in some sense a slave is the most free of all gods people. A working person after his daily job must return home and fret over home, family, food. Yet, slaves are the happiest, and, in some sense, the freest people in the world.

The Slave is free, too, when the labors of the day are over, and free in mind as well as body, for the master provides food, raiment, house, fuel, and everything else necessary to the physical well-being of himself and family. The children and the aged and infirm work not at all, and yet have all the comforts and necessaries of life provided for them. They enjoy liberty, because they are oppressed neither by care nor labor. The women do little hard work, and are protected from the despotism of their husbands by their masters. The balance of their time is spent in perfect abandon. Besides, they have their Sabbaths and holidays.

The free laborer must work or starve. He is more of a slave than the Minmatar because he works longer and harder for less allowance than the slave and has no holiday, because the cares of life with him begin when its labors end. He has no liberty, and not a single right.

Public opinion unites with self-interest, domestic affection and municipal law to protect the slave. The man who maltreats the weak and dependent, who abuses his authority over wife, children or slaves, is universally detested. The sin is not in slavery but the sin in which abuses are made is the real culprit.

Abolitionist, whether successful or not, is injurious to the slaves. It scatters discontent, and therefore unhappiness among them in their present state; it increases their insubordination, and thus subjects them to severer usage: should it free them from bondage, it would at the same time free their masters from the care of providing for them, and leave them an improvident class unprovided for, to suffer in rags and starvation, or under crime and its effects.

The sin as I have always said lies in the hearts of man. Not in any institution or government body. As any law or person can misuse their authority. I pray to god that respect and dignity be given to all people from that of the highest noble to the lowest slave. For we are all gods children.

I have only until recently come under contract of slaves. Prior to this only a few servants nothing more. In the creation of a new home I now have 3002 slaves and two servants. As a warden their care and health is my responsibility and I take this quite seriously. It is inherent to treat the slave well and with respect. For this gathers the most productivity.

Very Respectfully,

Paladin Warden Kyle Saltz

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And what influence with the Empress do you have, that the likes of Samira or Aldrith do not ?

See, this here is why I am perfectly happy to be shooting at you.



I didn’t think you were delusional before, but I sure do now.


Oh, cmon, don’t be obtuse like that. The guy has brought quite a valid objections to Ms. Dougans’ ideas, and even if I do not agree with all of them, they are not without merit. It’s just unwise to discard them like that.

In fact, since I started replying here, I do disagree with Ms. Dougans point of view as well, as I find it in discrepancy with ideals I knew prevalent in the Empire. Of course, I don’t claim to be an expert in Amarr ideologies, but I am not an ignorant either.

My own point of view on slavery is that it is inefficient by practicality. And while they address the issue from point of view of what is righteous or not, I do believe that more tradition-oriented representatives are more correct, and while it won’t change, I’ll support in full slavery in the Empire, as soon as it will stay in their borders - just because it’s Their Way. We all shall walk our own ways. And they themselves should decide shall they change it or not, without taking into consideration your opinion, or mine.

If the Amarr want to enslave other Amarr because of some evil spirit told them too, I wouldn’t care. When they enslave my people however, thats when I start caring.

I’d like to propose a thought experiment, if you would indulge me. Imagine if 1000 years ago the Amarr had invaded Caldari space and enslaved your people. Today you have gained independence, however a third of Caldari are still enslaved in the Amarr Empire.

Would you let them remain enslaved because it follows the traditions of the Empire?


As far as I am aware they enslave people not because “some evil spirit told them to”, but because they violate law of Amarr Empire. It’s their penal punishment method. Of course, justified by their religions and philosophy, but still - just that.

Of course. If they were Caldari in the past, they’re not Caldari anymore. How many generations have passed? Caldari is not just a bloodline, it’s not a race. They will be way more Amarr than Caldari by now.

In fact, they would stop being Caldari the moment they would surrender and submit to slavery. Caldari would die in that battle. Honor is more valuable than life.

That’s why, actually, slavery never was developed itself through the history of Caldari Prime. Among all four major Empires, Gallente, Caldari, Amarr and Minmatar only we never developed the concept of slavery. It’s not an ideology that can prosper within framework of Caldari worldview. Caldari are not Minmatar.

Unfortuently you have either been misinformed, or unwilling to see the truth. The Amarr Enslave because their religion demands that they convert every one who is not Amarr. They call it Reclaiming. Their entire culture is based on this one thing. They currently do not actively enslave other peoples because they are too weak to impose their will on the cluster without that cluster cutting its head off.

Make no mistake, there ultimate wish is to ensalve every one in this cluster, including you. Just ask @Samira_Kernher, or any one from PIE what the the purpose of reclaiming is.

We never ‘developed’ the concept, it was forcefully imposed on to us.

This is actually in interesting argument, and has larger implications that have to do with identity that I freely admit may not be within my wheelhouse of expertise.

That said, being Minmatar is not just about race or bloodline. Like I have said in other threads, one can be ethnically minmatar, but not of the tribes. However we persisted as a people even after the day of darkness. that our ancestors actively maintained what they could of our ancient culture, and deified both the Amarr and the spirit they worship, and actively threw off our chains, just like the Caldari threw off the chains imposed by the Gallente is a testament to that.

Have you read Pax Amarria?.. :woman_facepalming:
I pretty much know what Reclaiming is, and, trust me, it’s not as invasive and demanding as, for example, Gallente brainwashing. I don’t see Imperial armies marching to all neighbors to Reclaim them forcibly, like Gallenteans did to enforce their Democracy. And I don’t see 24/7 preaching propaganda coming from the Empire, unlike propaganda of freedom coming from Federation like poo would slip from every hole of overflowing toilet.

And yet you accepted it and were slaves for several hundreds of years.

As far as I am aware, worshipping any other spirit in the Empire is prohibited and punished by… well, enslavement. I am pretty sure if I build a shrine to Winds in the heart of the Empire, I’ll be enslaved as well. If you live in the Empire, live like Imperials. And that’s true for everywhere, actually. If you want to live in the State, you shall like like Caldari. Of course, we won’t enslave you here, but if you will walk, for example, undressed like some sort of depraved gallentean, you’ll be arrested and jailed for sure. Insulting official? Jail. Littering on the street? Jail. Serving overcooked food? Jail. That’s why we live better than others. We keep things as they should be.

We didn’t want to live as Gallenteans indeed, because they’re just disgusting, depraved and amoral, that’s why we left them (and also because they tried to subjugate us, violating their own laws and rules). But that’s it. We aren’t going war on them because they behave in what -WE- believe is depraved, or because there are living -former- Caldari in the Federation, spread all over the places, who are -enforced- into living like gallentean swines.

No, we are different.

Orion Zashev is a symptom all right: a symptom of an Empire that has stopped Reclaiming, an Empire that has stopped expanding its pool of subject peoples, and an Empire that has broken the virtuous cycle of Conquest => more slave labor => more armaments => more Conquest. Instead, desperate Holders, their Empire having failed to provide them with an ever greater supply of slaves, have sometimes turned to alternate sources like Orion Zashev.

Resume the Reclaiming, and there will be little need for Orion Zashevs.

I almost want to thank Nauplius for proving my point. Almost.

The ultimate wish is to reunite all of creation under God. To Reclaim that which God gave us. While slavery has been a method of that, the purpose of the Reclaiming is far, far broader than slavery.


All Minmatar tribes practiced slavery at some point before the Day of Darkness, actually.

Not anymore, however, until comparatively recently, this was, in fact, the most common method of the Reclaiming – conquest and the taking of slaves. The vast majority of slaves in the Empire to this day come from the descendants of this, not from penal servitude.

As Ms. Kernher says, slavery is a method (in my opinion, one that has lost much of its effectiveness when broadly applied in non-penal settings) by which to Reclaim people, not the goal. That does not mean, unfortunately, that some – such as Orlon Zashev – have made slavery rather than Reclaiming their goal. The fact that some have perverted it in this way can indeed be seen as indicative of a corruption within the Empire, one that actively hinders the goals of the Reclaiming.

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Two Emperors and an Empress have written of the approaching abolition of generational slavery. Is not the Emperor the representative of God’s Will ?

God has issued instructions to successfully abolish generational slavery, it is the duty of every member of the Faithful to ensure that at the appointed time, the formal abolition of generational slavery is just that: a formality, with it having been effectively ended long before. Problems of crime, neglect by Holders, starvation and so on, would be failures of the Holder’s duty to those under their domain, lesser nobles, commoners, and freemen alike.

So, I disagree.

I was BFFs with the Empress’s 8th cousin at school. So nyeeeh.

“Alternate sources”. Pfft. They are counterfeit. No proper documentation. No proper cultivation of their spirit. Every single counterfeit slave “sourced” by Zashev and company, are insults to God. Do not try and disguise their blasphemy with such phrases.

Not every topic requires a discussion of the Gallente-Caldari conflict.


In fairness it was I who started it, as a stand in for the Minmatar-Amarr conflict.

And I believe I’ve shown they’re completely different.

Miss Ramijozana,

Now I am not unaware of the negatives of slavery as well. I would be delusional as a whole to believe all of one side and not the other. Quite so that slavery has also allowed great injustices done to man but also threatens the culture, customs, and civilizations of those that come under the shackles of slavery.
It is another reason why I do not fault the Minmatar for fighting us. If situations were reversed I would expect the same thing from my children, and their children’s children. However, the Empress declared the institution legal and a bedrock of Amarrian civilization. I as a warden must support the Empress. Therefore defend the act of slavery against abolitionists. If the Empress changes this view point from divine guidance than I as a warden would support this decision as well. It is not my place to question the Empress. Only to dutifully serve our God, Empress, Empire, and Margrave with unquestioned loyalty.

I will not say that I do not sometimes have my doubts on my duty. Or even feel any respite for those we fight. However, hesitation is a luxury that I can ill afford. Only to serve to the utmost of ones capabilities and entrust in gods plan.

Very Respectfully,

Paladin Warden Kyle Saltz

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