A question about intergalactic economics

[zluq_zabaa]

@Zachri

Was halfway to Amarr’s sperm bank before I figured it out >.<

To sell or stockpile?

[Zachri]

@zluq_zabaa

To sell or stockpile?

Um … moving right along …

[zluq_zabaa]

@JC_Mieyli

well thats the thing by making the material currency you can just force a fixed lower value that you cant legally undercut
like selling $10 for $9
you cant do that because the material is legal tender
in busy hubs they might pay more because there would be a shortage of mateiral to build with and so they will pay more for material but then how does that even work when the material is currency
how can you pay more material for material
im not sure i havent thought about it properly

Maybe it’s me not understanding you or one of us not understanding what currencies are.

In your opening post your example stated an assumed lower limit of 5$/kg iron.

If iron is the currency, is $ in that example the US $ as in real world currency? Because if so, that would assume that you could fix the exchange rate between in-game currency (iron, in your example), transit currency (PLEX which negotiates and mediates between “iron” and real $) and real $. This would mean that there would be an in-game max price for PLEX. Why would that make sense? No matter how much “iron” would be produced, you’d only ever get a max of X iron for your PLEX. Sure, it would be a kind of minimum wage for in-game labor. Minimum wages often make sense in the real world, but I’m not sure they would in EVE. The less you have to work in-game to acquire value equivalent of 500 PLEX (in ISK or iron, as your example), the less people feel inclined to buy PLEX with real money. The more you have to work in-game to to the same, the more people will be motivated to buy PLEX. It comes down to a comparison of (theoretical and practical) hourly income in-game vs. in real life. So, if you meant it like that, please explain how you think it could make sense?

If you didn’t mean real $ with your “5$/kg iron”, then what did you mean? If iron is the currency and by “$” you actually meant ISK, it would make no sense at all, because then you’re asking for minimum price of ore in ISK and then your “iron” wouldn’t be the currency and also you’d stumble into the same problem as before. Any possible over-production of “iron” could not somewhat self-regulate over a dropping price, but would simply become a war of who fills the buyorders first and you’d possibly have the effect that “iron” would be exactly at its lower limit all the time. Then it could not even properly function as a secondary currency and would become principally just like an NPC commodity.

So, what do you mean?
“5$/kg iron” as in 5 real dollars (in PLEX I assume, because legality) or “5$/kg iron” as in “$” equals ISK and “iron” not being a currency in the first place?

p.s.
As a real-world comparison, you can’t force a lower value for any currency, because the value (not the price, those are different things) is only expressed in the currency, as the relation between all other commodities, it’s not a property of the currency itself. If, like in your example, “iron” would the the in-game currency and “X” were your “$”, than you’d set a max price for “X”, not a minimum price for “iron”, because “iron” would not have a price, as you’ve pointed out yourself ($10 = $10). That’s why your example - unless you mean it in a totally other way - probably does not make sense.

[Whitehound]

@JC_Mieyli

im not sure i havent thought about it properly

Consider these two factors:

• Material
• Time

Material: Any material should be worth its own weight. Without any further specifics should 1kg iron be about as much worth as 10 times 100g iron or 1kg of rock or 1l of water.

Time: As they say, time is money. Time can be an indicator for complexity, but also creativity and artistic value. If it takes you 1 hour to produce one lump of 1kg iron with the easiest and fastest method, but it also takes you 1 hour to produce a beautify piece of iron of just 1g, then it should be as much worth simply because it took the same amount of time to make.

Now take these two factors together:

• So when you have 1kg of iron then it is just as much worth as any other 1kg of iron.
• When you have 1l of water and it only took you 1/10th of the time to produce it compared to iron, then it should be worth only 100g of iron.
• But if the 1l of water is rare and it took you 10 times as long to get it in comparison to the 1kg of iron then it should be worth 10kg of iron.
• When you have 1kg of ice, which you’ve made from 1l of normal water and the water itself is worth 100g of iron, but it took you twice as much time to make the ice compared to getting the water, then the ice is worth 2l of water (for the time) plus 1l of water (for the material) or the equivalent of 300g of iron.
• If you’ve found 1kg of ice and didn’t have to make it first, then you’ve saved yourself time and can undercut the price, because you’ve found cheap ice.
• And so forth …

[Solonius_Rex]

@JC_Mieyli

hey what if we all went out into space and started mining rocks

Already being done.

@JC_Mieyli

and it can be iron

No such thing in EVE.

@JC_Mieyli

and we would just say from now on iron is our currency and it can never drop below $5/kg
like we can control our own economy by converting our building materials directly into currency

Again, already done. We can sell ore on the market directly for isk.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Marcus_Gideon

PLEX turns into ISK.

No. PLEX is exchanged in transaction for isk.
It doesnt turn into isk, at any stage.

[JC_Mieyli]

@zluq_zabaa

Sure, it would be a kind of minimum wage for in-game labor. Minimum wages often make sense in the real world, but I’m not sure they would in EVE. The less you have to work in-game to acquire value equivalent of 500 PLEX (in ISK or iron, as your example), the less people feel inclined to buy PLEX with real money. The more you have to work in-game to to the same, the more people will be motivated to buy PLEX. It comes down to a comparison of (theoretical and practical) hourly income in-game vs. in real life. So, if you meant it like that, please explain how you think it could make sense?

well real life doesnt matter this is a sp game with an ai drven economy
but its hard to design a virtual economy with an intelligent ai
especially one which isnt overly complex or convoluted

@zluq_zabaa

If you didn’t mean real $ with your “5$/kg iron”, then what did you mean? If iron is the currency and by “$” you actually meant ISK, it would make no sense at all, because then you’re asking for minimum price of ore in ISK and then your “iron” wouldn’t be the currency and also you’d stumble into the same problem as before.

yeah i was trying to give it a relatable minimum value but if it is its own currency then it might be confusing
there would need to be some kind of index of values

i guess it would mean the busier hubs would have lower prices
the iron is overproduced in low pop areas and overused in high pop areas so demand for iron is higher in high pop areas
this means prices are lower in those areas to encourage people to import their iron

[zluq_zabaa]

@JC_Mieyli

yeah i was trying to give it a relatable minimum value but if it is its own currency then it might be confusing
there would need to be some kind of index of values

How about we keep things like they are regarding ISK as the in-game currency then?

Ore can continue to express its value in ISK and if you feel there needs to be a minimum price for Ore, while you can’t have an absolute minimum, you have a minimum regarding opportunity cost and how players negotiate that through the market. If you are on the bottom end of mining income, you are probably not in Null, not multiboxing Rorquals, right?

[JC_Mieyli]

@zluq_zabaa

If you are on the bottom end of mining income, you are probably not in Null, not multiboxing Rorquals, right?

well in this game high sec is more expensive to set up in and more likely to get bullied out of space
low end mining would set up a small outpost in lowsec and have to defend against pirates but eventually you can set up ai security patrols and turn your mining outpost into a trade hub which increases the economic index of the system
which is a gameplay mechanic with a number of effects

[zluq_zabaa]

@JC_Mieyli

well in this game high sec is more expensive to set up in and more likely to get bullied out of space
low end mining would set up a small outpost in lowsec and have to defend against pirates but eventually you can set up ai security patrols and turn your mining outpost into a trade hub which increases the economic index of the system
which is a gameplay mechanic with a number of effects

So let’s be clear. This thread is not “a question about intergalactic economics” but an attempt to re-think how highsec-miners could avoid the consequences of their actions?

[JC_Mieyli]

no its about designing an ai driven economy for a space game

[Whitehound]

@JC_Mieyli

no its about designing an ai driven economy for a space game

If it’s not really EVE related, but concerning some other game or your own game then you should better ask to have this moved into Out of Pod Experience as it’s only going to get confused here more.