Equalization of isk sink and faucets

(Elzon1) #1

As stated in the title I would suggest that isk sinks and faucets should be equalized so as to prevent unnecessary inflation of the in-game currency isk.

Inflation in the isk supply can give a negative feeling to those engaging in economic activity in EVE. Whether it be trading, industry, or grinding all players can suffer under the effects of inflation.

The proposal is to reduce bounties, mission payments, and all other isk faucets in the game proportionately over time so as to equal the amount of isk deflation in the game. Perhaps this can be done over the span of a year so as to ease players into the new norm.

This will create a more positive feeling to those engaging in economic activity in that their efforts will have a greater impact on the greater economy.

Thoughts? Would the equalization of isk sinks and faucets have a positive or negative impact on EVE players? Why?

Edit: Typo Oopsie :stuck_out_tongue:

(Nevyn Auscent) #2

Step 1. Prove actual inflation is happening. Without trying to use the plex bubble as your proof.
I recommend using the mineral prices. And looking at where spikes correlate with updates or nerds and eliminating those aspects.

(Elzon1) #3

How about the monthly economic report for July 2017 (it’s kind of obvious): http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/MER/Jul_2017/9aaa_top.sinks.faucets.over.time.png

(Nevyn Auscent) #4

Now read the actual numeric detail and note the ‘little’ thing not shown on that graph called active isk delta.
Also simply because faucets are larger than sinks doesn’t show that inflation is happening.

(Gregorius Goldstein) #5

While agree that EVE has not much inflation/mudflation compared to some other MMOs a little bit of a minor rebalance would be OK to me. I always found it odd, that the biggest sink, the skillbooks, hits you hardest early on in the game and are negligible once you got your pilot “set”. “Asset Safety” on the other hand should be a bigger sink in my opinion. Because it hits those the most that hord huge fortunes but can’t defend it.

(Elzon1) #6

Yes it does. Inflation in the monetary supply as stated.

Just because that isk isn’t active in the economy doens’t mean it never will be. It inevitably will be, given time. Besides, the active isk delta is almost always negative even given constant isk inflation over each month due to player account lapses. None of that isk is being destroyed, it’s simply inactive. Isk inflation is real and yes PLEX can be a good indicator as to overall isk inflation after supply and demand are accounted for. The EVE online economy for July 2017 had an isk inflation of 35.6 trillion isk even though 43.4 trillion left the economy temporarily. The active isk delta is more of an indicator of the value of player accounts leaving/coming back than anything else (that’s what it is meant to indicate).

Is the isk supply in EVE inflating? Yes

Do isk faucets and sinks need to be balanced? Yes so as to avoid any potential negative effects.

(Daichi Yamato) #7

Skill books don’t hit you hard early. The price of skills for newer players are trivial. Check the cost of capital skills.

Inflation at the moment isn’t anything to worry about. You’re gonna have a hard time showing that there is some kind of problem. An increase in money supply is not a problem until prices are also going up (not plex).

(Lena Crews) #8

I think the idea that isk will inevitably become active again is false. There are plenty among the huge numbers who have stopped playing who will never return to the game.

Isk supply inflating doesn’t actually cause inflation by default, even if it all were active. If the amount of goods also inflates to match the isk supply, prices will remain steady.

This is a pretty basic economic principal. If money supply increased by 5% and productive capacity also increased by 5%… there’d be no inflation since the numbers balance. If money supply goes up or productive capacity goes down with out a corresponding increase or decrease… prices will go up (inflate).

Other factors you have to consider that impact if an increase in money supply causes inflation are things like the velocity of circulation and spare capacity in the economy. There’s also “reserve values”… which is normally something that matters with commercial banks but in eve is essentially the balance players want to keep in their wallets. It is simplistic and incorrect to think that an increase in money supply always causes inflation. The US’s “qualitative easing” process recently shows that economies don’t always work that way. We had huge increases in money supply from 2008 to 2011 with no resulting inflation due to both increases in commercial bank reserves and spare capacity in the economy.

(elitatwo) #9

Just tell the (insert blobb alliance name here) to stop isk printing in sooper dooper and small cities and remove incursions. EVE fixed.

(Mayhaw Morgan) #10

It sounds like what you are saying is that more money in the economy doesn’t mean there is more money in the economy. And, I agree that that is something we should consider . . .

(Cade Windstalker) #11

Raw sinks and raw faucets are never going to be 100% equal, expecting them to be is unrealistic since ISK can enter and leave the game with players, also quite a few of them are percentage based so the amount lost to sinks changes with the velocity of ISK and activity in the economy.

Beyond that, you may as well make a thread telling CCP “Work on the game!”. They’ve literally nerfed Carriers expressly at least twice for the primary purpose of getting the ISK faucet that is Carrier Ratting under control, and based on the last econ report it’s worked.

I’m really struggling to understand the point of this thread…

(Lena Crews) #12

No, it’s that money in the economy isn’t the only factor.

Price (as an aggregate) is determined by money supply (in the market) and production capacity. If money supply goes up and production capacity doesn’t… you have a inflation. But if money supply and production capacity increase equally, you have no inflation despite money supply going up.

A simple example… let’s say the only thing you can buy are rifters. If the amount of money people have to spend on rifters goes up 5%… and the number of rifters produced goes up 5%… the price remains stable. Production increase matches money supply increase. Make sense?

That’s the main factor. There are other smaller factors that also have an impact that I mentioned… but that one alone should suffice to illustrate why increased money supply does not always lead to increased inflation.

(Mayhaw Morgan) #13

I know how to play this one!

Okay, but let’s say space monsters start eating all the Rifters. Then the cost of Rifters goes up, because there are less Rifters but the same money. But let’s say people don’t like Rifters now, because there are space monsters out there that are eating them. That makes the price of Rifters go down, because people would rather have ISK than big, scary space monsters chasing them. But, let’s say people need to get Rifters because they can’t fit mining lasers to their capsules. That makes the price of Rifters go back up. But then the people who sell Rifters need to get ISK, too, so they lowered the price of Rifters to make people buy them for cheap to get a good deal. But let’s say the people who sell Rifters stopped selling them because nobody was buying them and maybe they don’t even need the ISK because they already have a lot. Then fewer people would be selling Rifters and that makes the price go up. But what if those fewer people somehow got more Rifters, then the price would go down . . .

I just want to clarify one thing, though. Does more money in the economy mean there is more money in the economy or not more money in the economy?

(Do Little) #14

The Eve economy itself is not experiencing inflation. The Consumer Price Index has been declining for most of the games history http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/MER/Jul_2017/9d_economy.indices.png

Inflation occurs when too much money is chasing a limited supply of goods but goods in Eve are not limited. If anything, over production and stockpiling of goods is a potential problem for the future.

The problem in the economy is basically the exchange rate with real world currency - PLEX. As the ISK supply in game grows and people don’t have anything to spend it on, they buy PLEX as a store of value.

There is too much ISK in the game and I believe CCP is aware of that. I expect them to reduce faucets and increase sinks slowly and iterate their way to a solution - with players complaining vociferously all the way. I’m not sure how you deal with oversupply in a game where nothing wears out or goes obsolete - we need a mechanism to create inventory shrinkage over time.

(Elzon1) #15

At any point it can and so it’s better to assume it will.

Yes, some may never come back. However, given a more interesting (fun) gaming experience a large portion of them could come back (one could hope).

If you mean price inflation then you would be correct so long as the isk inflation doesn’t trigger an increase in overall demand.

Indeed, but that’s not the point I’m trying to make now is it. My point is to balance isk inflation/deflation so that each player’s activity feels more impactful and so that the EVE economy gives a better feeling of velocity/activity instead of the stagnant feeling it gives now. It’s more subjective than objective.

It seems due to the fact that the word “inflation” is synonymous with price increase you mistook my point.

(Lena Crews) #16

More money in the economy of course means there is more money in the economy. More money in bank accounts does not… because to be “in the economy” it has to be used.

This is like when with qualitative easing in the US where more money was given to banks… but the banks kept that money in their reserve accounts rather than lending it. Effectively money was produced… but since it wasn’t used it never got into the economy.

(Lena Crews) #17

I think in a shrinking game, assuming players will return to spend their isk is an unrealistic assumption. I think a more interesting a fun gaming experience would increase the player base… but I think you’re probably more likely to get newer (and younger) players than returning 35-40 year olds.

As far as what you meant… I’m not sure what you’re getting at to be honest. Inflation is a very set term when it comes to economics… it indicates an increase in prices or a decrease in purchasing value of a currency. The statement has been made several times in this thread that an increase in money supply causes inflation. The simple fact is that is not always true. And to be honest it doesn’t seem particularly true in EVE. The only things that seem to be suffering inflation are more due to a static supply than anything. PLEX supply (being based on those willing to spend real money) is fairly static. So the increase in isk in the hands of players does cause an increase in plex prices. CCP reduced the drop rates of pirate ship BPC… and their price went up. This wasn’t due to an increase in isk… but rather a decrease in the ability to produce those ships. But everything else… that can be produced or invented from isk-purchaseable BPC… does not inflate. It doesn’t because there is no constraint on production and as prices rise the increased profit margin causes producers to fill the demand and push prices back to where they started.

Eve’s production of everything not controlled by purchasing with real money or by CCP’s drop algorithms… is essentially as infinite as the isk supply at the moment. That’s why other things are not inflating in price.

(Mayhaw Morgan) #18

I think I got it so far. More money in the economy COULD mean more money in the economy, unless it doesn’t, but more money in bank accounts is definitely not more money in the economy because bank accounts are not in the economy. But now, I have another question: Where does money have to be to be considered “in” the economy? Also, where are bank accounts if not “in” the economy?

I really appreciate your help with understanding this.

(Daichi Yamato) #19

Being spent on goods or services.

Money that is not spent may be considered in the economy, but it rarely, if ever, causes inflation.

(Daichi Yamato) #20

We need to destroy ■■■■.
Destruction is roughly a third of production. And thats with production being under represented and destruction being over represented.