Wow seriously. The only thing I did was to mention the study CCP Rise did and you tried to counter it with some ridiculous claim you can’t backup. And now you say I am trolling because you are cornered and unable to actually come up with any evidence for your claims.
3 Likes
You are the one who came out with this in a thread talking about war decs, here
This is trolling, so one last time, all CCP Rise’s analysis proved is that ganking had a slight beneficial impact on people who were ganked in their trial period in terms of staying with the game. It never confirmed this:
If you continue raising it I will just repeat post this reply to you. As closure I will say that at this point in time as in now with the current state of the mining barges and exhumers I can confirm that ganking has a minimal impact on player retention.
So what you do is pretty irrelevant, though I thought you lot would be pretty proud of how many people you forced out of the game? No actually as it was based on CCP’s incompetence I guess not…
What was the reason for Procurer to get battleship-level tank if high-sec suicide ganking was not taken into account?
In other parts of space it’s not so important because in most cases this only means that attackers will spend more time to kill the ship.
In high-sec if you have wardec and get caught in belt in most cases you will die too.
The only thing where such tank really helps is suicide ganking.
1 Like
If the OP’s gang is able to bottle the enemy into a station, isn’t that stopping them from contributing those forces to the war anyway? He did say that this was no problem for him to do.
Seems to me that a corp with 66 members could easily work out a way to do their tasks and keep an active fleet roaming, if the CEO is on the ball.
Not so. My corp uses Procs in null sec over other mining ships to give others time to reship into combat ships that can come help kill people attacking us, Because the greater tank makes logi fit ships like our Porpoises more time time to save them and because the tanks makes for great bait ships.
Mining ships are just for solo stuff, they work in groups too lol.
The problem with you is that you think facts matter.
They don’t. (I linked that article because this part of the discussion suggests it’s true, with people ignoring the tested fact for untestable or hard to test ‘facts’ like "why did CCP buff exhumers).
Simple fact is that CCP Rise’s analysis was to find out if ganking affected people negatively in terms of staying in the game if they were ganked while in their trial period or not, it was aimed at finding out if ganking affected newbros negatively. That is the fact, trying to say it proves anything else is wishful thinking.
I have offered an opinion on the affect of ganking on casual hisec miners during the period that mining ships were left at the mercy of high DPS destroyers, and others such as CODE have a different opinion and it was CODE who said that this analysis proved something it did not. And waffling around something you found on the Internet proves that your own objective thinking ability is flawed.
And yet the Hulk was designed for fleet mining in nullsec…
1 Like
Notice “in most cases” in my original quote. Your example is pretty rare actually. Of all mining barges my group killed for quite long time i cannot recall one defensive operation.
Actually anything smaller than rorqual dies mostly silently.
1 Like
What you said the only reason for it was against suicide ganking. Without CCP telling you it’s just conjecture. You can see plenty of defensive uses of Procs on Zkill (like what my corp does with them), and about 65% or so of kills procs get are in null.
It depends on what the original question is, if the question is; How many players left due to ganking? then my query parameters will answer that question only.
Your question seems to be; how many players subbed or unsubbed have been ganked?
You are correct, my statement needed to specify if the ganker was in turn destroyed by concord and that the player who was ganked wasn’t flagged.
The belt rats in Nullsec are a bit bigger than in Highsec you know. Also the intention was that this ship can defend themselves well against attackers, hence the drone bonus which is completely useless against suicide gankers.
A properly fit skiff has the same stats as a HAC while still able to mine.
Okey. Let’s look at the history:
- mining barge rebalance happened on 2012-08-03 dev blog
- zkillboard stats show that since August of 2012 procurer started to have many kills.
I won’t dig deeper into killboard but will look at the blog.
Oh… Just found this quote:
Procurer and Skiff will have good defence.
and this one:
The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank, or NPCs, by giving a large enough buffer to react to incoming attacks, while paying for that with a lower mining yield.
For some reason i feel that your version slightly differs from what CCP presented these changes with… 
2 Likes
Quite right, which is why I said that CCP buffed them for a reason in terms of the impact of ganking.
Prior to them making those changes I had been on the forums a lot saying that they had a balance issue and they were losing people and that the ships had a choice between a tank with the strength of a wet paper bag or a tank with the strength of a wet paper bag and that all these hisec miners were being ganked and were taking big hits and seeing all their progress disappear rapidly which had taken them a long time to make. I think I gave up saying anything about it six months before they finally did this buff.
Go and look when they buffed the damage to destroyer DPS, it was a stupidly long time to leave such a massive imbalance and it cost them a lot of subscriptions. I had it in my mind that it was before the Tier 3 BS came out, but I have not located when it happened, of course this does not fit the narrative of CODE players who talk about nerfs to ganking all the time, but this was one massive buff to ganking so they downplay it to hell and back.
I referred to this being two and a half years of stupidity, but it was not that long, it just felt that way, my memory was late 2010, but it could have been early 2011. Well I found the first use of destroyers to gank in my corp 19th January 2011, and I am pretty sure that my lot went and did this about 3 to 4 months after the destroyers had been buffed.
Hey Drac, was it massively imbalanced during the years before either the barge or destroyer buff happened?
Just curious. You have a really weird way of looking at things.
#Draclivesmatter
#Gameunfair
1 Like
Pretty sure you were banned weren’t you? Don’t think you’re allowed to subscribe 
1 Like
The number one thing that completely destroyed small scale merc groups and griefer corps was this garbage ally system. . . . Every time a small entity declares war for literally any reason the defender corp immediately gets ally requests from most mercs. Mercs being lazy about not hunting their content resulted in this blanket wardecc system we have today, and as a result they are likely going to ally on any war they can get ahold of, After all… Who wouldn’t add more target density to their plate of content for free? And what moron in the defender position wouldn’t accept a free ally request from mym8 vmg pirat PE if they were being attacked?
Get rid of this garbage ally system, and you’ll see smaller scale pvp come back to highsec.
1 Like
I war decked for a POCO and got all three on me, however the ally system works really well, for example I have used it to jump into a war to take down a certain gankers POS in Niarja a while back, I did it to support an indy corp that he had war decked and blew up his safe POS and got a number of carebears exposed to PvP.
Use of the ally system against those groups is one of the important ways to defeat them, in all I think it is a good thing. In any case as people say to carebears you have to avoid and work around them, it is not that difficult to be honest, especially if your own war decs are very focused in scope. Your concern is if they have actually been paid to defend that objective.
Also those ally requests are often joke ones to get more ISK out of people they war dec, I got a number of them and found the majority were alt corps of the war deckers who were trying to get some of the war dec fee back. And the few that weren’t were so goddam awful that they needed more help then I ever needed…
I understand the use of the ally system and it’s advantages, But the old system of having to declare war on the aggressive corp yourself if you wanted to engage in defense was imo better. And I also understand having to work around the larger merc alliances. My alliance and I manage to do it quite well 
Personally I think the fact that it completely KILLS small scale pvp out weighs any sort of benefit it has.
Alternatively, If you made allies cost isk to ally, then you create an even larger isk sink into the game, You remove this blanket ally trash. And you still keep the 4 hour timer to enter on an already active war. This solution would keep the best of both arguments I think. And any one who complains about it costing isk is just whining. Merc alliances (VMG for sure) spends around 10b a week on wars… They can afford the fee, any indication that they cannot is simply bullsh*t
There are a number of people that use these to fight VMG and the other blue donut mercs Jennifer en Marland for example, I wonder why you don’t get together with other like minded war deckers and use it against them. I am not having a go at you or anything but the ally system was a core part of what I saw as an anti blanket war decker group in hisec.
Most small war deckers I came across went after small targets that they could hunt in particular areas, with the watch list changes your only issue would be if they came to defend an objective that you were attacking or that your target used the pipes, market hubs and mission hubs that have the blanket attention of the blue donut three.
1 Like
I don’t get together for a couple of reasons, One of which being that my small group does perfectly fine at avoiding the donut on it’s own. Also you are probably assuming that I’m advocating my point on behalf of my group, which is not the case. I’m advocating it on behalf of the small scale griefer corps that don’t have the amount of alts that my group does, And the groups who dont fly with 15+ guardians and T3’s. My group and I are more than capable of handling ourselves in any wars we accumulate or snag.
I would love to see the amount of small scale griefer corps return to a similar number as there were in 2010 or so. The content provided by the blue donut is stagnant and boring… Smaller scale mercs would bring more variety, and who knows, Maybe smaller scale mercs wouldn’t take content for granted and you’d see hunting return back to the market, Because realistically none of the large merc alliances in todays world will actually put more than 25 mins of effort into hunting.
Edit: Also a lot of these groups will claim to “hunt” but what they really mean when they say these things is that they flop an alt up and down the pipe twice hoping to scout something moving, This isn’t what I consider to be hunting, I consider it more to be roaming… So sure… you might get 10 guys who roam collectively between the 4 large merc alliances, But I think the number of people who actually hunt is probably more like 3
Also I might as well include my definition of hunting if I’m going to include this bit. Hunting in my opinion is actually taking the effort to locate specific targets via locator agents, and then actually traversing the distance to go and then find a way to kill that target in their HQ or running missions, Or camping their pipe gates (in the case of hunting and killing other mercs) Most mercs will whine about the watch list changes destroying this level of content but you’ll find I hold no sympathy for such weak arguments, It only destroys the content if you’re a lazy pilot. My group manages 15 wars at any given time and we do not feel content starved because we’re willing to put in the work for finding the content… It can be done if you just put the effort in and stop whining about the effort for 20 mins.
4 Likes