I mean CTRs. Valuable research, Drifter/Jove tech. Doesn’t explain why their hulls were on fire though.
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Alright. I’m going to go over this in full, as it does arise periodically. I’ll try to bookmark this for the future, so that the time spent has at least some value to it.
Speaking generally, many of us are combatants. Our enemy of choice may vary, but very few do not participate in some sort of combat. Exceedingly few are actually, truly pacifists. That said, the criteria whereby we determine our enemy naturally differs from Capsuleer to Capsuleer.
Generally speaking, we all take it as a given that the space of our respective empires should be sovereign against threats, so that we may live in peace.
In the first place, then, the Drifters violate the sovereignty of every empire’s space. One could argue that the Jove Observatories may qualify for some degree of extraterritoriality, as the various empires’ stations do. After all, there are Republic stations in Imperial space, State stations in Federation space, and so on. However, in no instance would you be fired upon for merely approaching a station subject to extraterritoriality. Could you imagine the outcry if State forces fired on any Federation and Republic ship that happened into a given zone, in Federation or Republic space? Needless to say, this isn’t the behavior of a nation or people abiding by our accepted code of conduct. What’s more, we’ve negotiated extraterritoriality, not assumed it under threat of death.
In the second place, the Drifters have directly attacked all of the empires at various points. Their attention has been focused primarily on the Amarr, yes, but no Empire has not taken losses to them. I’ll admit it seems surprising that some are willing to so readily forgive this, but that I’ll leave to personal prerogative. However, it does seem wishful thinking to assume that they will never find future reason to attack the empires, given that we do not know their objectives or methods. Admittedly, this cuts both ways, but we have witnessed nothing that seems like peace-seeking behavior, nothing that indicates that they believe their work is done. Until such a point as we have the ability to prevent attack, the Drifters remain an eminent threat.
Lastly, if we assume that the Drifters are indeed seeking to either defend or reclaim wormhole systems from us, that our actions in wormhole space are the cause of this, then the simple truth of it is that we can’t avoid future conflict. What likelihood is there that Capsuleers will stop colonizing wormhole space, or collecting Sleeper salvage to construct advanced technology ships? What ability do we have to enforce such a thing, even if we attempted it? Simply said, so long as the powers that be in New Eden are willing to pay handsomely for Sleeper salvage, Capsuleers will colonize wormhole space.
Peace is desirable. When Society of Conscious Thought elder Matshi Raish indicated that a dialogue with the Drifters may be possible, we paused operations and solicited more information. When silence was the only answer after some weeks, we resumed operations.
Teinyhr, you’ve asked why we maintain our operational tempo.
It’s quite true that we’ve become reasonably adept at fighting Drifters. However, a weapon poorly maintained is more dangerous to the wielder than to the enemy. We maintain an operational tempo suitable to ensure continued capability, so that we can respond to situations as they develop. If we were to reduce our tempo, ARC’s Drifter fighting capability would eventually wither. Capsuleers would move on, the Drifters would develop new tactics without our being aware of them, and we’d soon find ourselves without the ability to respond to evolving situations. Further, we maintain our tempo to provide active surveillance of all areas of the Hive complex. Scouts alone are only infrequently capable of penetrating Hive complexes, and changes in the Hive may allow us the breakthroughs we need.
As it stands, there remain mysteries, uncertainties, and a continued need for material and data.
I would consider ARC’s work regarding the Vigilant Tyrannos done when we have the ability to prevent arbitrary Drifter wormhole deployments, when we don’t need to assume that any appearance of a head of state outside of DED-grade shielding is the next thing to suicide, and when Capsuleers aren’t reliant on Sleeper salvage to produce advanced technology.
Obviously, those are high bars to set, and I doubt they’ll be reached any time soon, but we can’t help but try. Otherwise, what would we do? Merely sit on our hands, trusting in hope, the Sanctuary Sisters, and CONCORD? Go back to garden variety Capsuleer murder and mayhem?
Surely you wouldn’t wonder why an organization actively fights rogue drones, you wouldn’t argue for mere containment of the drone regions. Surely you wouldn’t wonder why pilots assume Blood Raiders or other pirates are hostile.
So, why in the case of Drifters?
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They do not. Those stations were established in secret without the consent of the empires, and by all accounts were built before any treaties were negotiated between the empires and the Jove.
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Merely saying one could argue it. I agree with you that it’s a bad argument, though, absolutely. Extraterritoriality is negotiated, not secured at the point of a sword. It’s the product of diplomatic efforts, to regularize relations and provide for an open galactic society.
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I’d just like to say that it was an honor aidding ARC in their efforts to finish off those genetic abominations in Rens.
I’ve eagerly waited for a chance to join in on such an operation. But with time being a valuable resource that was stretched thin for me, rarely got the chance.
So for once, it was quite refreshing to take a fight to one of their forces. I already look foward to the next oppertunity to thin their numbers out!
Just wish we knew for certain what caused the original damage to their hulls. Maybe some kind of weakness being deployed against them? I’d be more than interested to know.
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Given just how many people die every single day as various forces of our various nations invade each other, I don’t really think there’s any general consensus there. For my own people, the Empire is a perpetual demonstrable threat. This case is pretty much the same for all our nations. Your claim only makes sense if you willfully ignore these violent incursions for whatever reason. Perhaps you’re just bored with it, or something. It still vastly overshadows the Drifters in bodycounts and continues to this day.
So just like our nations continuously violate the sovereignty of each others spaces, with far less of a bodycount, but with vastly greater justification given our continuous assault on w-space. In fact, unlike the Drifters, our various navies’ sorties tends to fire first while the Drifters seem to take defensive postures. Of the two, I know which clearly constitutes the worst threats against our respective peoples.
Forgive it? Hell, I condone it. As it has been said many times before, their response to our actions against them, their space and so on seems rather lackluster if anything. With that technology and the justifications they have for their actions, any of our nations would have burned the other three to the ground by now. Not defended a few installations, popped one titan and then menacingly scanned gates. Your definition of an ‘eminent threat’ is weird, because it certainly hasn’t borne out so far. Again, in a single day we do more damage to each other than the Drifters have done in their entire known history with us. How exactly does this make the Drifters the ‘eminent threat’?
Baby and bathwater, Makoto. Just because you can’t achieve one extreme on a scale, that doesn’t justify heading straight for the other extreme as if there aren’t endless steps between them.
How does attacking their demonstrably harmless fleets achieving any of this? What gain was there in that fleet’s destruction, in that series of objectives? What gain did you have in terms of wormhole deployments? In defensive technology? In terms of sleeper salvage?
Oh by the way, the arguably strongest and most powerful of our vessels do not require Sleeper salvage. We would hardly see our hangars diminished whatsoever without those ships.
How about yes? If you see no other viable course of action when the Drifters are showing no signs of aggression than to destroy, loot and pillage them then perhaps you should be sitting on your hands. Oh dear, you spent mere weeks trying peace. Weeks. Your patience seems non-existent and your lack of a diverse and nuanced approach does not exactly raise any faith in your capabilities. At this point, I’d very much rather see SSoE and CONCORD be the workhorses and representatives of our nations, because they don’t go on a bloodthirsty rampage for no good reason. Again, as witnessed in Rens yesterday, neither CONCORD nor the Republic Navies considered the Drifters a threat on that gate. They peacefully coexisted, and observed each other. What exactly makes you think you know better than both those organizations what should be done about them in our space?
Because they’re not rogue drones. They seem to be a people of their own. A people who’s homes and installations were invaded, attacked, pillaged and vandalized… and again, if rumors are true they were even kidnapped and practically enslaved as informorphs. Their response to this has been extremely light, and they clearly are looking for something. In all likelihood, something we’ve stolen. Quite possibly, from their point of view, someone.
You find it odd that a Matari empathizes and sympathizes with those who have been invaded like that, simply because the invaders could? You find it odd that we would find their response justified, and even falling far short of what would be justified?
It has become abundantly clear that you are not interested in any kind of eventual peace at this point. Your actions are those of savage barbarians, not of people looking for understanding or peace.
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Why all the walls of text to say one thing? Can’t we summarize?
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Some Drifters exploded. Other things also exploded. Some people were pleased. Other people were angry. Yet more people were largely apathetic.
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You forgot ‘And some wondered what salvage they could get their hands on’
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Onoes. I have brought shame upon my family and dishonoured my ancestors by such an omission.
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Not to worry, if you pop on over I can chastise you appropriately. For your own good of course.
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Are you… flirting with me ?
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People probably know I don’t agree with Miz all that often, but on this? Yeah she pretty much said everything better than I probably could. Not my exact sentiments, but close enough.
Because saying “Well, I disagree” doesn’t usually suffice. Especially on a topic such as this because a lot of people seem to have trouble understanding why someone could have “sympathy for the devil.”
Like Miz has said, of all the “eminent threats” in this cluster, the Drifters are actually the least violent. Blooders, rogue drones and other pirates, or just other capsuleers tend to attack indiscriminately whatever they feel like they can kill and go over the remains. The only defining feature and why people seem to be extremely worried about the Drifters is their overwhelming power when they do decide to engage something.
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Are you likely to try to kill me if I was? This is an important consideration before I answer.
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A friendly reminder; “Don’t stick your dick in crazy.”
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Who even does that ? Why would you even think I would do such a thing ?
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Ah yes. Thank you. Very concise.
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It’s the whole blood cult religion thing. I’m not religious myself, but if we were to set that aside as a conversation topic I’m sure we could have an enjoyable evening. I promise I’d cook the steak rare though.
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Proof that capsuleers will flirt with anything, and defend anything in one thread.
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I still haven’t been presented with any convincing reasoning why the Drifters are any worse than Sansha, blooders, empire black-ops or just your run of the mill capsuleer pirate. Because with all the evidence available to me, they are less dangerous than any of the above.
Unless of course your “defending anything” was aimed at the desperate attempts to try and justify exterminating Drifter forces that are doing nothing but existing.
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