I just came back to EVE after a long break and i really like the PI stuff.
I was reading threads about how going all the way to P4 is not worth it.
Is it better to stick to P3, or even stay at P2, of course those with Immediate Uses, like t2 and stuff.
This questions are for high and low sec
Right now the Eve “average” for Consumer Electronics is 14,100 ISK. Mechanical Parts are 11,700 ISK, Robotics are 99,900 ISK. You need 10 units each of P2 to make 3 units of P3. Input cost = 258,000. Output value 299,700 ISK. Not including POCO taxes. In highsec where you can expect 10% export and 5% import tax it probably isn’t worth going beyond P2. In lowsec it will depend on the POCO tax and risk premium you want to build in.
Historically P4 hasn’t been worth the effort but, Upwell structures are driving demand and prices have doubled since the release of Citadels. I used to make MTUs (Wetware Mainframe, Organic Mortar Applicators and Ukomi Superconductors). It was a lot of work. Now I make T2 drones (Robotics and Guidance Systems) higher profit and a lot less effort.
I just calculated for my situation where I am building Sterile Conduits.
They have an average price of 1.5 million.
The cost of components are without taxes with an average price of 15.000 per unit pf P2
20 x Live Stock = 300k
20 x Viral Agent =300k
20 x Construction Blocks =300 k
20 x Miniature Electronics =300 k
Total = 1,2 mil
So the profit margin is indeed slim
Maybe if we go for more expensive and harder to build P4.
If you really want to make good profit on PI, you really need to do it in Lowsec, Null or WH space. In highsec I would recommend sticking to P0 - P2 which can easily be done on single planets thus removing any import tax you might be charged. P1 productions may have the lower overall tax but then again P2 might have a lower tax/m³.
In my experience Do Little is quite correct, especially about drones, another one is rocket fuel, etc, pretty much anything that supports T-2 building, for me if I was going to look at it strictly as passive income with little interaction;
P1, selling raw products for a few million each week, look for high output resources, you get less in the way of ISK per unit but you make up for in bulk sales.
P2, best way to increase your raw products profit margins, requiring bit more interaction but more profit but also harder to keep producing as high sec planets are kinda resource poor.
P3, great for T-2, will struggle a bit to keep product on the shelves (in high sec ), when you build T-2 at a steady pace, buying raw products to keep your factories humming will likely happen if you build T-2 often.
Bottom line, if you go the T-2 route the profit is good, lots of competition though, but, building for yourself you save tons of ISK, but you will have lots of training books to buy depending on how much you decide to spread yourself, easiest way to go T-2 builder is to pick a product to specialize in, drones, rocket fuel for T-2 missiles, this way you can concentrate your alts to produce raw materials to P2 then exporting to your main, your main will be responsible for creating T-2 and P3 products (or an alt should be recruited to avoid war deccing problems, just keep them a nuet), and happy happy build time.
300k profit per unit p4 made from p2 is indeed great. Just multiply by 5 (for 5 units in parallel per planet with CCU5), by 6 (for 6 planets with IPC5), by 24 (hours per day) and finally by 30 (days per month) and be astonished that you’re plexed and then some.
In hisec profit might be a bit lower in reality but still easy to plex.
This was just one toon, btw…
PS: Forget about extraction planets in hisec - they’re just not worth it.
That depends on your level of attack.
If you get attacked in low-sec or null-sec for over 10b worth, then it can be worth it, but only in large volume to compensate for the lower percentage ratio.
For instance, 10x 10% = 100% equivalent .
(Minus the potential 10b worth of attack to defend from in low-sec, null-sec.)
100x 10% = 1,000% equivalent, or, 10 times more worth it, without defense costs to counter attacks.
Set this up to 14 days for minimum travel times, with the proper storage per planets.
Make the P1 to P3 on close by planets, high-sec is the same ratio.
P4 on Temperate Barrens planets.
It’s good to have some of everything so you can make whatever you want, whenever.
The more production planets set-up, the merrier, all you need is the extracted material to produce it 24/7 with proper storage and periodical launches to save time.
There are 2 types of launches, but whichever the best cost, it can be done instantly, or every 5 minutes with the free route upgrade to Experimental level X.
You can store the supply to sell at best demand, when and where it is the highest, and place offers in sell orders for others to bid on.
The only thing you need to buy are the skills to produce it (up to level 4 and then 5) and the ships to haul it.
Customs Office skills helps to minimize costs and deal more efficiently with launches.
Alternately, you can load over 20 PI launches per planets for around 5 days, which can be picked in less than 3 minutes.
All those 4 x 3 = 12 pilots to 15 pilots for 5 accounts can generate a billion over a few months.
That is at the slowest rate of production, as the production rate increases with time, due to practice, experience, and because it’s easier to find better ways to improve production with time.
1 billion which, when done faster, means less time to get, and more ISK per hour.
1 billion can also easily be put towards the current 1.66b to get 30 days worth of game time for 500 PLEX.
If you spend all the time doing it without other activity to PLEX those accounts, then it’s not worth it.
If you have another activity which lets you PLEX those accounts, then it can be worth it.
Also, if you spend 3 minutes per planets at 6 planets per pilot max, 5 planets at level 4, that’s only around 18 minutes x 2 for 30 days.
That’s about 36 minutes per pilots, x 4 , if you multi-client, can be less than multiplied by 4, auto-pilots works good in High-sec, in the right place, and under the right conditions.
So, maybe 1 billion is 2 or 3 hours if done right.
I make about 200m per hour +/- multiple pilots running incursions.
But 1 billion for 2 to 3 hours pays more per hour.
Additionally, in “not worth it”, it depends what worth means, what the it in worth it means, and also even the definition you have for the negative word not.
Maybe it’s not worth it to you to make more, or maybe you didn’t know you said that.
Btw, even the best incursion communities don’t run 24/7.
Those who run more often tend to make less.
There are also gankers which costs over 2 billion to replace loss, not including the 2b implants.
It takes money to make money, and it takes ISK to make ISK.
If you refuse it, someone else can use it.
You can also do mining on the same number of pilots to make another billion whichever best way you find and have the skills for.
This can generate another billion, will not require you to be with 40 other players at the same time, coordinated with efficiency good enough to make the incursion payout from CONCORD, as PI doesn’t require.
Doing 15 pilots with 6 planets each would take a fair bit more time then you mention. I am very fast at resetting my PI and I can do 36 planets in about 15 minutes (2 accounts at a time) , pretty sure your ~90 would take at least 3x longer and that just resetting the cycles, not to mention picking up from each planet (at least 2 minutes per planet aka 3 hours) and moving heads ect. You can move about 500mil of P2 per Epithal and that’s a pretty tasty gank if you Autopilot. Either way its a lot more effort than you make out.
As for a cost to defend Low /Null, Null maybe but if you live in Null thats part and parcel of living there not really a PI cost. As for Low Sec, no one pays anything to defend low, if you want to live there you do and just get good and don’t get caught.
As for the return per month, 1Bil is very low for that many toons. I make ~3bil per month with my 36 Planets (in WH space but Low/Null would be pretty much the same ) so the return per toon is pretty bad (at my 1.5 per account you 5 accounts could easily net 7.5bil per month) .
All of that being said, if you are happy with the way you do it that fine with me, all the more market share for me .
yes 15 pilots x 3 mins per planet (also range sensitive) x 6 planets per pilots = more than 4 pilots x 3 mins per planets (also range sensitive) x 6 planets per pilots .
As for the P2 to P4, those activities require different set up than extraction.
I ran my extraction on other planets than the P2 to P4.
Most of the P3 was done on the P4 planet.
I then managed to run 2 x P4 planets.
I also had one P1 planet, on which I ran rush P1 order for when I ran out of P1 material for the P4 planet.
Sometimes, the extraction planet didn’t generate enough, and so I just launched the Raw Resources, and manufactured the P1 on there.
That was not the optimal and fastest set up by far, and I did run more than 4 pilots.
The best thing to do would be to make videos or steam live, so that the time and data of the amounts and value can be proven for verification.
I could not do 36 planets in about 15 minutes for a few reasons.
1st, the planets were mostly used for extraction.
Most of the rates were under 14 days.
Sure, I did set a few to 14 days, which is the max time for reset.
However, on a planet which is not full, say, for rare gas or other rare felsic magma, it may take longer to fill up storage.
36 planets x 3 minutes per planets would be over 102 minutes.
Also, you cannot autopilot in null-sec / low-sec / wormhole, while you can do it in certain condition in high-sec, in certain place.
If you make 10 billion doing PI and you get held hostage by an enemy coalition, you may find it more worthwhile for you to avoid it.
I also found it easier to extract more resources from more pilots than only 2 accounts.
It gave me access to a larger pool of resources, with which I could make more P1, and use the P1 to make more P2 to P4.
I sometimes ran out of P2 or P3 which delayed the P4 production.
I did all P4s.
I had all other resources and stocked them so that I would eventually be able to run all P4 at the same time.
You can find this extremely negative as other activities if enemies try to make it negative for you and you can’t find the resources to keep it positive enough for you to profit from it.
That might be a good ground to start a war though.
If you can keep it positive enough while competition try to make your efforts useless and reject you, than you may be able to calculate how much profit it is worth to you, or to others, if your allies profit from it.
Otherwise, the enemy may be the one profiting from it at your depends, if you let them, or fall into the potential traps they try to set up.