Are the Triglavians ripping off the capsuleers who work for them?

Most of us are presumably aware that there are capsuleers who fight empire navies on behalf of the Triglavian Collective and that one of the main rewards which the Collective gives to their mercenaries for this is blueprints to produce the Zirnitra-class dreadnought. However, after early observation of the ship’s capabilities since they first started appearing a few months ago, its capabilities seem rather lacking compared to the considerable price that it commands. It really has no purpose right now aside from being an expensive hangar decoration. We’ve seen what the Collective’s ships are capable of when the Collective uses them. Other Triglavian ships which capsuleers have been more expensive than counterparts from the empires, but generally worth the added cost. For example, I particularly enjoyed flying a Drekavac during my time in Anoikis, and since I’ve recently been flying Basilisk and Guardian more than most other ships, I’m interested in learning how to fly a Zarmazd (on first impression, I didn’t expect it to work well, but the Amarr Empire’s upgrade to the Rodiva seems to have found widespread use for armor repair ships.

My question is this: Since the Zirnitra blueprints are specifically given as payment, rather than obtained through somewhat more adversarial means, are they trying to rip their mercenaries off by giving them an inferior “export” version of their dreadnought?

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If you were in control of a nation, collective, or other similar major power, would you willingly give capsuleers access to weapons on par with the very best you have even if they were helping you for the moment?

Also, the resources that are valuable to us might not be the same ones that are valuable to them. Who really know the full extent of what they have access to in their abyss. Cost to us isn’t likely a good gauge of anything the Collective thinks.

That said, I hope any capsuleers willing to help the Collective are getting shafted hard.

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Well, I understand why some capsuleers would side with the collective. Well besides the obvious greed factor, I am sure some genuinely agree with the collective’s ideals at least over those of the empires.

I doubt they give a ■■■■ about us. Kinda like empires. They’re just another empire amongst others, trying to make their spot on the arena.

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They are not just another empire. The empires uphold human life in general, the triglavians don’t. =/

This is debatable.

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Yes, it is debateable, but I think without the empires and concord the life of the majority of people would be much darker.

First, I’d like to tell you something I tell every one of my own logi pilots in RepSwarm, literally every fleet they’re on: Thank you for flying logistics. It may seem weird to the people who just want the kills, and it may seem counterproductive to my strategic interests, but a life saved is a life saved, and if we were all focused on that… well, there’d be nobody focusing on ending them, would there?

That said… oh my sweet inky black void above and below is the Zarmazd one of the absolutely sexiest little rep-monsters I’ve ever flown. If I could slap Rapid Repair charges and an Armor Command Burst II onto Triplets, she might be my only armor logi. (Though I have an insane build for a Logikitursa I’m considering trying.) Depending on how the Z’s fitted out, she can maintain her own reps without an issue while providing enough outgoing capacitor charge to keep a Guardian’s remote armor repairers running. And she’s tougher than my Guardian. I wouldn’t want the entire logi wing in them, just because of the spool-up time, but a few of them mixed in with the traditional logi are a force multiplier on the force multiplier.

As for the dread…

The price is all supply and demand. If they’re bad, then demand will come down, and price will come down. I suspect, though, that we’ll see them really show their potential the next time there’s a supercapital fight.

Both in seeing how quickly they can swamp Force Auxiliariy response, and… as someone here likes to put it… as ‘ablative armor’ for the Nags and Revs.

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Now, I’ve been inundated with consultations, but I’m not sure we can make many decisive statements about Triglavian ideals…? Some, certainly, but I don’t think we have a cohesive moral framework to go with.

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Indeed, in some ways I’d say the interesting part is that they display a pretty strong variety of opinions within whatever framework they all compose - not only between the clades, but even the subclades and the three different forms of life that make up their population.

That said, it DOES seem that whatever morals Zorya seeks to soak those who align with the flow into are the ones that will be encountered more or less entirely in these Invasions, and in whatever primary friendlinesses we see and may be invited to participate in.

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I’ve been wondering if the Triglavians might be a fully post-death society-- universal cloning, or something similar. It’d explain a lot of the way they approach things.

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Just what New Eden needs… more delusional psychotics who imagine they’re immortal.

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With the Navka being pretty digital, and the Koschoi seeming to be something more hidden away & acting remotely, I’d also expect the Narodnya to have their own grasp on immortality with how nonchalant Trigs are with their provings - I still find it absurd that we have yet to see a comprehensive report on the mechanics and/or biology of Troika-Narodnya(?) bodies aboard the countless destroyed Collective ships from Invasions.

If they disintegrated or exploded or something upon death, I assume we’d have heard about that a long time ago - so why was a successful Drifter autopsy so much more readily performed, comparing their single-crew vessels with the fully crewed (going by TTC designation) trig ships?

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Good question.

i like my psychotic tendencies :slight_smile:

Yes, but you’re in ASCEE, we know you’re crazy. :stuck_out_tongue:

So, Mr. Anteovnuecci? I’m wondering if you have some source specifying the nature of the Navka in a way that distinguishes them from the rogue drones.

I ask because I’ve been running into Navka overminds in the Abyss, and at a glance they’re way more than “pretty digital.” Even in Chaotic zones (where beating the blasted things down to wreckage is one of the most lethally time-consuming things you can be stuck doing), they’re consistently built on the same easily-recognizable dominix hull the rogue drones favor.

They always have a rogue drone escort. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one in company with a Triglavian ship. I can’t remember seeing anything suggesting they were natively Triglavian in any way. I think they must be the leadership units of the rogue drones in the Abyss: tolerated/befriended by Veles; despised and hunted by Svarog; occasionally asked a favor, like, “Some hivelinked intruders have infested one of our Damaviks. We’d rather not get close, since we could wind up infected ourselves. Would you very much mind incinerating it for us?”

Have I missed something?

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Miss Jenneth,

The nature of the Navka has been reveled piecemeal in the cladeflow datastreams we’ve collected over time in our ventures into the deep - specifically the DAV series - and while they may be recorded from a perspective that needs no explanation of what a Navka is, there’s a lot we’ve been able to glean from them. I’ll go through and elaborate on each and what they reveal.

The “Navka Overminds” encountered in the Abyss RELATE very intimately to the Navka, but are not themselves the full expression of this specific form of life.

First, the record you refer to in which a Damavik is boarded:

image HFN2 :
Cladeships of the 3 tactical troika classification in communion militant of Zembog Subclade of Veles Clade encountered vessels under guidance of hivelinked foreign narodnya at reverse-time co-ordinates (indecipherable) while processing in sub-30 exclave of conduit loop construct-477. Invocation of the ancient-time accepted noema of extirpation of hivelinked narodnya proceeded but material realization was unacceptable. Entosis of hivelinked foreign narodnya into body of a 3 tactical troika classification cladeship commenced at reverse-time co-ordinates (indecipherable) and corrupted Narodnya of Zembog Subclade. The Koschoi of the tactical troika advised immolation. The Navka consented and invoked immolation at reverse-time co-ordinates (indecipherable).

In this, a 3-Tactical-Troika-Classification cladeship belonging to Zembog Subclade of Veles Clade encounters Sansha forces in a conduit-loop room, and extirpates them with difficulty - but the real problem comes when Sansha elements board this Damavik and “corrupt” the Narodnya of the TACTICAL TROIKA piloting the cladeship.

What the Triglav call a “Troika” is an assembly of three distinct lifeforms - physical, infomorphic, and who knows what else - as an “individual”. Invariably, a Troika is composed of one member of each type of life form composing the Triglav race as a whole (with all the info for Navka continuing below:

Narodnya - the physical “human” body - baseliners and capsuleers are both Narodnya,
Koschoi - the nature of which we have little understanding of: no real description
Navka - a somehow non-classical sapient form that can interact with the rogue drones.

The three voices of Zorya Triglav heard in their pronouncements are those of each of these components within them - and the assembly of a new Troika is described in the latter HFN datastreams in the case of Kresnik Svarog.

If you were to infiltrate a standard-piloted 3-TTC vessel of the Triglav, you’d most certainly be met by what would appear to be a single person, who is in fact three. The classification numbers of their cladeships, by all indications, refer to the number of entities aboard - the lowest being a single three-as-one Troika piloting 3-TTC cladeships, and the highest extending to far larger multiples of threes as necessary crew increases.

You interpreted the following events as an agreement between Rogue Drones and Triglav, but the reality of the interaction, better understood through application of newer knowledge, is a bit different:

The human-bodied Narodnya of the Troika is corrupted; the Koschoi of the Troika proposes self-destruction as a method of erasing this corruption; the Navka of the Troika consents, with majority rule deciding on the self-destruction of the vessel and, in some form, the Troika controlling it.

Now, for what we can glean of the nature of the Navka through their relationship with the Rogue Drones of the Abyss, we look at the DAV datastreams - though there is little direct info provided, the understood story provides illumination:

image NAVKA OVERMINDS
The Navka Overminds are a form of rogue drone swarm that can be encountered in significant numbers throughout Abyssal Deadspace wherever Triglavian infrastructure is present. The designation ‘Navka’ seems to have some relationship to a subdivision of the Triglavian race that runs across the so-called ‘clades’.

It would seem that the Navka Overminds are either entirely suborned to Triglavian purposes or, perhaps more worryingly, are willingly working with them.

image DAV1 :
Subjunct Technical Troika of Belobog Subclade of Svarog Clade reports to Paramount Strategic Troika of Svarog Clade the entosis into sub-9 exclave, sub-21 exclave and sub-45 exclave of conduit loop construct-63 of deviant automata over repeated-time co-ordinates (indecipherable). Provisional poshlost extirpation was invoked on the observation of destructive mortification of claim-holdings of Belobog Subclade by corrupted vila. Convocation of Strategic Troika of Svarog Clade reaffirms poshlost extirpation invocation against deviant automata and extends it into advancing-time.

One Subjunct Technical Troika of Belobog Subclade
Reports to one Paramount Strategic Troika of Svarog Clade
Entry of Rogue Drones into conduit-loop rooms over x period.
“Corrupted(?)” Vila (the drones) attacking Belobog infrastructure are extirpated.
Convocation/Council of Svarog’s Strategic Troika (multiple Troika)
Reaffirm & lay forward policy of extirpation vermin/vulgarity against Rogue Drones.

image DAV2 :
Paramount Strategic Troika of Veles Clade rebuke-dissents from noema of Svarog Clade that deviant automata are poshlost irredeemable. Veles Clade now-time affirms tentative playful communion of Paramount Technical Troika of Vodya Subclade for exercise of repeated-time invocation of cladepylon adaptation schema for vila imperative dissemination.

One Paramount Strategic Troika of Veles Clade
OPPOSES Svarog Clade’s consideration of all Rogue Drones as Vermin/Vulgarities Irredeemable.
Veles Clade affirms cooperation of (numerous) Paramount Technical Troika of Vodya Subclade
For the purpose of invocation/creation of PYLON designs
For sharing for Vila imperative.

image DAV3 :
Convocation of Triglav Outside the Struggle remains consent-locked on the noema of poshlost against the noema of sobornost with deviant automata. The reverse-time entreaties of Svarog Clade of poshlost vila and Veles Clade of sobornost vila stand balanced in now-time with the indeterminate-consent of Perun Clade.

The Convocation of Triglav (top decider/mediator of the Triglav, Three Clades)
Has not decided on considering the present drones vulgar or potentially cooperable with.
Perun Clade has not sided with the position of Veles Clade OR Svarog Clade yet.

image DAV4 :
Convocation of Triglav Outside the Struggle invokes now-time imperative on Detached Executive Troika for Sublimation of Poshlost Flow to winnow through semiosis all discourses operating as elements in relation to deviant automata and corruption of vila autopoiesis. Convocation consent-lock on the noema of poshlost against the noema of sobornost with deviant automata is in decay-flow unfolding mortification on advancing-time cladeflow across (indecipherable) branches.

Detached Executive Troika has now-time imperative mandate to achieve metaxy by circulation of contradictory discourses through semiosis and force relations proving. Convocation of Triglav Outside the Struggle has evoked consent-resolve of Paramount Strategic Troikas of Perun, Veles and Svarog for this mandate.

Convocation of Triglav imposes task-imperative on Zorya Triglav
To winnow discourses: process+work/shave down arguments/opinions
In regards to all subjects concerning Rogue Drones and
Corruption of “Vila Autopoesis”: the process of the drones maintaining themselves/their group?
Non-resolution of the argument between consideration as vermin/consideration of cooperation
within the ConTriglav is:
in decay-flow : unresolved-deteriorating?
unfolding mortification on advancing-time cladeflow : slowing/harming moving-forward info/data
across (indecipherable) branches.: in many forward-branching paths/areas.
Zorya’s HIGHEST PRIORITY is to find a middle ground
Through comparing info and direct action/experimentation/proving.
All three Clades consent to Zorya’s carrying out of this given task.

image DAV5 :
Detached Executive Troika for Sublimation of Poshlost Flow dialectical semiosis flow (indecipherable) follows:

Deviant automata «encountered manifestations exhibit range of autonomy profiles» (indecipherable) reverse-time discourse-element (indecipherable) «organizing principles place highly against archive pattern analysis indicating upper ranges of autonomy for distributed artificial entities» (indecipherable) threat of corruption of vila autopoiesis.

Now-time discourse-element (indecipherable) «requests for comprehensive threat profile modelling are impinging on control norms for testing and analysis» (indecipherable) the consent-lock has invoked now-time imperative to establish noema with (indecipherable) metaxy. «Isolated testing and analysis will be carried out by» (indecipherable) «control measures will be used in recovery» (indecipherable) detached Navka have imperative to return to the domain of Bujan and offer procession to the Convocation of Triglav Outside the Struggle.

Advancing-time discourse-element (indecipherable) «difficulty of meshing foundational culture motivations with distributed artificial entities» (indecipherable) «despite countervailing measures from higher functions of entities the success of reconnaissance pulses and surveillance scatter indicates continued work to evolve relationship» (indecipherable).

Zorya’s dialetical semiosis flow for (----) follows:
- Rogue Drones have a vast observed spread of levels of autonomy.
- Records show they’re organized around the higher/est autonomic drones.
- (—?) corruption of the process of the drones self-sustaining themselves/their group.
Current argument subject (—):
- Requests for threat modeling impinge on control norms for testing.
- Non-resolution of decision by the Convocation: Zorya NEEDS to craft a middle-ground policy.
- Isolated testing/analysis will be performed by (presumed: some relation/form NAVKA)
- (—?) control measures will be used in recovery of those performing this testing
- These DETACHED NAVKA (not part of a Troika, operating as themselves?)
are to return to Bujan and report/provide info to the ConTriglav
Progressing/moving-forward argument-subject (—):
- Difficulty in meshing moral-cultural foundations/motivations with the drones.
- Despite pushback/retailiation from smarter(higher) functions of drones,
there is success enough to suggest that they are in fact working to evolve their relationship.

image DAV6 :
Detached Executive Troika for Sublimation of Poshlost Flow dialectical semiosis flow (indecipherable) follows:

Deviant automata «classification and testing has confirmed wide range of autonomy and sentience profiles» reverse-time discourse-element (indecipherable) «within upper bound of sentience profiles the distributed artificial entities represent» ancient time noema «opportunity/threat paradox at the civilization level» (indecipherable) consent-lock decay.

Now-time discourse-element (indecipherable) «resolution of threat profiles and modelling of opportunity branches is complete within acceptable variance» (indecipherable) detached Navka have returned and procession of their offering to the Convocation of Triglav Outside the Struggle has been grounded in metaxy (indecipherable) «the procedures for co-operation are being refined» (indecipherable) consent-lock has been broken.

Advancing-time discourse-element (indecipherable) «in deference to the concerns raised by Koschoi the procedures for co-operation will require the authority of the detached Navka to be acknowledged according to moral norms applicable to sentients» (indecipherable) extirpation imperative is extended beyond poshlost undoubted to vermin and corruptive threats to vila autopoiesis.

Zorya’s dialetical semiosis flow for (----) follows:
- Confirmed: drones observed show a WIDE range of autonomy and sentience
- Past argument-subject (—?)
(—?) within the upper bounds of sentience profiles observed
since-ancient policy (—?)
weighing risks, of this subject civilization scale opportunity/threat
disagreement is falling apart
Current argument subject (—):
- Testing and modeling of threats/opportunities is acceptably finished
- DETACHED NAVKA have returned to Bujan
and their reports/info has been grounded/core-used in the MIDDLE GROUND
- Cooperation procedures are being defined/refined
Middle ground has been found and the ConTriglav nonagreement has ended.
Progressing/moving-forward argument-subject (—):
- IN DEFERRENCE?RESPECT TO Concerns of Koschoi (the third Trig form of life)
that cooperation will mean the detached Navkas’ authority will need to be acknowledged
“according to moral norms applicable to sentients”?
(Koschoi seem concerned/see Navka as not traditionally sentients,
and this will require them to be looked at/lensed as if they are?):
- Extirpation initiative changed:
\ “Undoubted vulgarity” to-> “vermin/bother”
\ “Corruptive Threats” -> Drones self-sustaining themselves/their group(?)


IN SHORT:

-Rogue Drones appear in the Abyss
-Svarog assets are attacked and they uphold position that Rogue Drones must be purged
-Veles disagrees and believes cooperation to be possible
-Perun cannot pick a side to choose and end this argument
-The Clades Assembled could not decide on a judgement of the Rogue Drones

-Zorya is mandated to find a suitable middle ground by the consent-locked CTOS
-“Detached Navka”, not part of Troika, suborn?cooperate with possibly willing Rogue Drones
-And return to Bujan, their reports/info providing foundation for the needed middle ground.
-For cooperation with Rogue Drones in the Abyss
-(We also know of “Rogue Drone” ground forces fighting alongside Trigs in Invasions)
-The seeming high-position/form/caste? Koschoi do not define Navka as classical sentients.

Navka are not merely the "rogue drones found in the abyss"
Navka are one of the three lifeforms/bloodlines composing the Triglav race as a whole
Navka Overminds-allied drones in Abyss are Rogue Drones with/linked to Navka lifeform

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