Dev blog: Upwell 2.0 - Structures Changes Coming On February 13th!

Ok and I see your points but you’re missing some key things too.

Firstly, to some corps it is the biggest asset considering it could mean the difference between their only safe harbour or death… it changes an age old feature of systems that never had a station to begin with that may be of benefit to a small corp. It’s the biggest asset not just because of the structure but because of what they want to do with that structure… the fit costs too you know.

Mentioning numbers like you have is exactly my point… your mentioned big alliances and their bling fleets of supers and subcap. I’m talking about the smaller corps with miners… mission runners. Groups that can afford maybe a handful of structures to make the game fun to play for them. May it be building/mining/research. So yes… one supercarrier these days goes for the same price as two fortizars… Most corps do not have that kind of capital/investment.

The 24hr vulnerablity window is fine… I have no issue with it, make it more like the days of the old pos… But make it have the same feature, make it have an automated defence similar to pos warfare. Not all people who warp to poses are their to shoot it… could be wanting to scan a moon, see who owns the structure… intel gathering to either decide on attack or leave it be. And look, nobody might ever defend the shield timer, but the fact remains it should still be an option to and if you can’t because you have a life outside eve and can’t be on 23/7 then give it some automation.

The additional two timers are just delaying the inevitable, you can’t remove any hull assets to restart, your structure is going to go down unless they get bored or they can’t come to the next timer. And tech2 weapons? Lol I wonder how much that will cost… then it will be ridiculously priced structures.

To engage a miner on athanors your going to lose a ship? Why? You can do any number of things to catch them… doesn’t mean you’re going to die.

The fight in 9-4 was a ■■■■ show of epic proportions, it’s going to fuel even more hate for getting them nerfed to the absolute hilt.

Tidi should affect structure repair timers, the tactics however used by the attackers where not exactly great. Sitting remotely off and using bombers… no wonder it didn’t go down. Losing bombers left and right, but with that amount of people on the keepstar, it should have been destroyed.

I see your side of the discussion, I really do… but I also see the side of this update that is going to see a huge amount of small corps being screwed over… it’s going to be damaging to small groups of people is what I’m saying… because as you rightly say, they can’t defend against the bigger entities. But at least give them something that will be beneficial…

Thanks for coming back to post though, appreciate it.

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Can you point out specific things in this patch that negatively impact small corps? There are complaints about citadels overall and complaints about this specific patch. This is the thread for this patch.

The 24 hour window doesn’t matter because you weren’t defending your 3 hour window anyways. The whole point is that you only need to defend 1 of the 3 timers. This gives you more control over the last 2 timers, which are the only ones you’re going to bother with anyways.

The new T2 weapons means that you need even less of a defense fleet so that massively benefits small groups.

Citadels are massively better for small groups than POS’s. The issue with making them any better is that there’s basically nothing you can do to help small groups that doesn’t get magnified for large groups. While the stuff you bring up will be an issue when NPC stations are removed they currently still exist. Smaller groups have lived out of NPC stations instead of POS’s for a reason.

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Please explain how you can ‘catch’ a ship in an NPC corp in highsec without losing your own.
Bumping is not an answer since it doesn’t work effectively against anyone who isn’t AFK or in an Orca/Freighter.

You obviously have never worked out the DPS of a high sec citadel. The weapons are so painfully anaemic it’s not funny. T2 weapons is not going to significantly impact on this.
As for the timers. It’s quite possible to be down to your hull timer simply because you spend 2 days offline. That’s not reasonable when talking about small corps of 10-20 players (Which can easily be 40 or 50 characters in corp). They aren’t going to be able to maintain any sort of 7 day presence. Hence why some people want automated defences. I don’t know if automation is the right answer personally but it is a problem that it’s very easy to end up on your hull timer and your structure shut down well outside any of your regular play time for a smaller group due to the lack of 7 day coverage.

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Then don’t use citadels in hisec if you can’t defend them…?

You don’t need a 7 day presence. You need a ONE HOUR a week presence, because you can choose the exact time of day on day of the week to defend your hull timer.

Also, you’re acting like it’s impossible to fuel a citadel. You have a full seven days before they can destroy your citadel. That is far far longer than POS’s. That is exactly the same as it is now. The only potential reduction in timers is for outside of hisec and even then it’s just potential and requires scouting.

Also, automated defenses won’t do anything. Anyone attacking a citadel assumes there will be a gunner.

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I really think you have nailed it here. I liked your Athanor explanation. It holds true for the Raitaru too.

We had a moment in time where the Tatara made it possible for a small to medium mining corp to be able to defend it self. I for a brief moment I was thinking how nice it would be to no longer be the Fish in a Barrel served up on a Silver Plated default warp in that PvPers don’t have scan or even look very hard for. We could actually lock hold and POP some of the attackers. No way we can kill them all but we can at least have some impact on their choice to stay or flee.

PvPers should not get easy kills. The system is lopsided and its no ones fault. Its just an inherent and probably unavoidable design flaw. Here is what I mean.

In Null and Low, Miners want to mine way more than they want to PvP. So, they are inherently poor at PvP. If a PvPer enters system, Miners must now PvP or run. PvPers want to PvP and mostly dislike mining. When a Miner enters their system, never will you see a PvPer forced to mine and it is highly unlikely that they must run.

Nerfs to Citadels and Warp bubbles eliminated the impassable gate scenario. This next update eliminates the Tethered Carrier Gate Camp. 24/7 vulnerability just makes sense as these structures will ultimately replace POSs.

Citadels are combat centric Fortresses. They are low skill and relatively low cost super powerful structures fixed in space. In reality and in the bulk of SciFi is the concept of Defenders advantage. Even at that, any structure not supported by a fleet is ultimately going down. Its simply a matter of how many ships you need to get the job done.

Thank you for your post and insights.
Cheers!
JR

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  • Since we call them structure they should not have any armor timers, its big and fat hull with force shield arround it. Please make those self repair by manually activated thing which require actual energy waste etc.
  • The price tag, full fitted KS is like = to 6 full fit pimped Titans and how many in terms of isk was on field? So make those things cost a real money
  • make it equal to incursion hq, you need well balanced group of ships with limited numbers world participants and the more atteckers bring the less dps they make, so its like stacking penalties same goes to defenders.
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Yes. You have 7 days before they can destroy it. And you should be able to be online for the hull timer. But from war Dec declared to armour reinforced and structure offline can be 48 hours if well timed. And to prevent that does require 7 days coverage.

It’s a massive change in timers for highsec citadels. Don’t try and pretend otherwise. Before you knew exactly when it could be attacked and could time that to your play time as well as having time between the timers to get help.
Now your structure can be turned off and you only get your last gasp defence to save it.

Automated defences will prevent people doing the initial attacks while you aren’t online and therefore facing zero opposition in them. Yes they can come prepared but it sets a minimum level of commitment to attack a citadels shield timer having them. Rather than just trolling people casually. Is this a good thing? Maybe. Maybe not.

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Being reinforced doesn’t stop you from doing anything besides refitting. You should already be combat fit. Not sure what you mean by “turned off.”

Automated defenses wouldn’t change anything because any attacker is assuming there will be someone to man it and shoot them anyways.

Armour reinforced and hull being next timer means all your services turn off. So yes it does stop you doing stuff.

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Services in citadels get turned off once they reach structure reinforcement timer, it’s what they do in hisec, a sort of denial of services attack.

Anyway - automated attack will change a lot about this current game play. For smaller groups it’s a god send… for bigger groups like pandemic horde… it would be a nuisance because it’s not attacking the right targets in the correct way they want.

Primarily my points are focusing on lowsec…

And please don’t be that guy that says don’t be in lowsec… or 0.0 or in citadels. You’re perpetuating this old mantra that smaller groups should just be pigeon-holed into this category of stay where it’s safe please…

It means we don’t get to branch out and try these new features… of course there is risk, and of course there is a lot of different scenarios that would kill anyone. But stop being that person of just sit down and shut up tripe that everyone else spouts.

We need more than one hour to effectively keep a structure going . And if you read the notes on this patch and Dev response… it’s two hours either side of the hour and day you choose… some people in small groups have family’s, jobs… Commitments that are not worth mentioning. But still this is an issue for a group of small timers who want to own a structure in any part of space…automate things at least gives them some solace that they fought back when they could or when the structure could.

And the weapons are severely underpowered as it is… even fit for capital warfare… it might give the fancy numbers but you will be hard pressed to fight someone who is 400k off with a group of carriers just casually beating away at your structure. Give us point defence on all structures. That will take care of that issue because let’s be clear… It is an issue! Tech2 weapons are not going to drastically have any difference on the game play of structure combat… please don’t confuse yourself here, this isn’t a saving grace for smaller groups… it’s just another resource we have to buy in order to stay current and try and survive.

Will it make a difference? Probably not… but taking away the fact we can’t hold someone on grid or we can’t set the guns/point defence to auto shreds the enemies or neuts or whatever, just limits the small groups ability to hold anything… and then you are right, don’t bother… just dock in NPC until they’re gone and your back to this thread of all NPC stations being removed… then we have to live out of citadels (long way off I know but still) you would hope that there was something in place to make sure you can effectively hold a structure.

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You can relax, there is no way all NPC stations are ever going to be removed.

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Perhaps you can think about an ore bay at Athanors - since Rorquals are not able to dock, the should be able to transfer their mining hold to the >refinery< structure without lightering

People were just complaining that they don’t want to have to fuel things because none of the services are worth keeping on. If someone attacks your citadel it is with the intent to destroy it. None of the services are that important for defense. Shield timer is meaningless, it’s just a “hey we’re here.”

The armor timer is still day of the week chosen by the defender. You only need to have a defense fleet one day of the week. If you cannot manage that there is nothing that CCP can do short of completely invulnerable structures to help you hold a citadel. An astrahus is an impossible to jam or ewar super that only costs 1b.

I’m not saying that t2 weapons will be your saving grace. I’m saying that nothing in this patch negatively impacts small groups. You will have the same issue after this patch as you did before this patch, that you are trying to defend against insurmountable odds.

A properly fitted astrahus can kill any dread. If they are sitting far away with carriers then undock subcaps and kill their fighters. It takes a decently large subcap fleet with a good logistics wing to kill an astra even with no defense fleet. Their defenses are stupidly powerful already for how little they cost.

Can you explain to me why you have to live in citadels? NPC stations still exist only because of small groups. If you don’t have enough people to not have your “commitments” overlap then NPC stations are the place for you.

When the NPC station removal thread comes you can debate that. Until then, this is the thread for this patch. Argue about things actually in this patch.

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No it’s not. The armour timer is a day chosen by the attacker. It’s the next time of day the defender chose after 24 hours +/- 2 from when they reinforce it. So a well timed attack the Armour timer is going to be about 24 hours after the attacker hit the Citadel.

No, this is nothing to do with not fueling the structure. Services get shut down when the structure is onto it’s hull timer. This means for smaller groups which are common in highsec, you can have your structure shut down without getting a chance to respond because both shield & armour reinforcements can be done during your dead days.
Since you don’t get to pick the day of the week for either of those fights. The only fight you get to pick the day of the week for is the hull fight now.
As for expecting a smaller group to ‘overlap commitments’, you seriously have a warped idea of what size group should be permitted to own a citadel. Under that requirement you are saying your group has to be several hundred to be entitled to own a citadel since you need 7 days coverage where you can put a real fleet on grid (Probably something like 10-12) to be able to contest the armour timer. And the attacker can pick your weakest day to have the armour timer on.

I mean seriously, go and read the Dev blog, you are getting facts wrong all over the place here.

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Sorry, meant the hull timer. You’re acting like the structure getting services shut down is as good as killing it.

First people say that they don’t want to fuel because they don’t need the services. Then they say that the services getting shut down is the end of the world and makes defense impossible. Which is it? (hint: it’s the former)

There’s nothing about citadel services that are necessary for defense.

You still keep dodging the question. What’s wrong with just being in an NPC station?

I have said neither of those things. Nor have I seen anyone here saying such things related to defence. You seem to be inventing statements.

However having your EC or Refinery shut down while your corp doesn’t have many if any members on for a day or two, and then the services are shut down for between 6 & 12 days, that’s pretty significant. People can shut down your 0.5 moon mining for 12 days. And then they can just do it again because you don’t have Monday/Tuesday play time due to work etc…

As for ‘what’s wrong with just being in an NPC station’… Sure, you are right, you ‘could’ just ignore all the Upwell structure bonuses and the new types of game play they enable. until you are a 10,000 player Corp able to cover 23/7 time zones. But expecting that is a joke. That is why we have timers. The problem is CCP have set up a timer structure with the new 2.0 mechanics where you can be shut down for massive time without reasonable chance for a small group to respond.

The old timer system meant you could only be shield attacked on a day of your choosing so you should be able to respond to the attack. The new system means that you are already shut down and only get to save the structure. Ok, saving the structure is relevant, but so is a 12 day shut down of all your structure services as well.

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If you don’t have the manpower to have anyone online for your armor timers then you don’t have enough people to defend the structure anyways and it’s a moot point.

Also, it costs a decent bit of time and money to wardec someone just to take on a hisec athanor. It doesn’t even drop any loot. No one knows how the moon seeding will work out yet but I’m going to guess anyone serious enough about mining to care is already mining in nullsec. There will be plenty of moons to go around.

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I’m aware that astras are very effective when fit correctly… and I’m aware of the damage they can do especially to a dread…but they can only do that if I’m there.

As for carriers sitting off… again please re-read my point on small corps. And IL reread yours on not having a structure and going to live in NPC stations again. We will just go round in circles.

Nevyn has hit this issue on the head, we want a sense of ownership and we want to be able to avail of the bonuses that these structures give.

Asking CCP to think about the little guy here and at least give us an automated weapons platform like poses had, isn’t something that should be off the table. I’m pretty active but there is a few days that I just can’t be online for various reasons… imagine coming back to evemail that your assets are in safety and yeah… that structure you had a week or so ago is gone, because an attacker hacked my structure, picked a nice time and attacked, then gone to armor… stopped my services (research/manufacture/whatever else) and destroyed my hull all within the seven days but I was off with work, and the guys in the corp are new so don’t exactly know what to do and haven’t been online cause of work commitments…

Let’s rebuild move area and start again… I’ve had to do this a few times, it’s hard and feels more like a chore, to the point I really don’t want to do it anymore. This is a game that’s meant to be fun, and enjoyable… I’m not enjoying myself if I’m outside eve thinking about my structures and assets… thinking about pixels and canceling ■■■■ to come on. I shouldn’t have to do this… That’s not an unreasonable request.

CCP, please reconsider some of these new changes and implement a system that works just as much for the attacker as it does for the small guy trying to play when he can.

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I am looking forward to all these changes. Thanks.

But my aim is to encourage interaction between groups by allowing control over who can “legally” mine. Permission to mine for everyone, or for people who promise to ally with you if war-decced, or those who rent an office at that station, etc can then be the choice of the mining corp.

Yes, people could switch to a shell corp and continue mining. But the war-deccers could also mine with relative impunity – they’ve already paid CONCORD for Crimewatch immunity, so they wouldn’t get a suspect flag either and would only have to worry about WTs in-system defending by ship or refinery guns.

War-dec corps with “aggressive” mining divisions – PVP through Resource Wars :slight_smile: