Dev blog: Upwell 2.0 - Structures Changes Coming On February 13th!

[Yoshi_Kanfar]

@Rowells

Yes I’m aware. My point is the refinery only cares about what’s in front of its face and counts it when it’s mined. There’s no reason to believe that there is some hidden tag in the database that says who “owns” an asteroid.

It doesn’t matter what the mechanism is – database flag on the rock or the field it is a “child” of, “sphere of influence” of a refinery, magic pixie dust – the fact is that the game engine can already differentiate between “this refinery’s rocks” and “that refinery’s rocks”. So it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of man to leverage that into a system analogous to can-flipping and ninja-looting: check access using refinery’s ACLs, allow or deny mining based on permissions and safety settings, flag those who mine without permission.

Is it worth doing? Regardless of the work the above may involve, that should primarily depend on whether it improves the game. I’d say yes, and have listed some pros above, but there must be some cons too and I was hoping people like you would point out what I was missing…

For example, I think setting a “suspect” flag is too wide ranging, it should be up to the Corp that owns the refinery to enforce the “law” (unless you like the idea of roaming vigilantes dispatching thieves – new career path?) and so would prefer a “limited engagement” between the thief and the Corp (if such a 1 vs group thing is possible).

Let’s see if the idea is worthwhile first, then worry about how it should be implemented.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

@Yoshi_Kanfar

For example, I think setting a “suspect” flag is too wide ranging, it should be up to the Corp that owns the refinery to enforce the “law” (unless you like the idea of roaming vigilantes dispatching thieves – new career path?) and so would prefer a “limited engagement” between the thief and the Corp (if such a 1 vs group thing is possible).

The whole point behind crime watch was to remove such sorts of confusing flags. So it would have to be suspect. Of course, realise that this allows ninja miners to shoot each other over the ore also.
And means the corp can’t hide it’s miners in an NPC corp from a war dec.

So the suspect flag is actually a pro to this idea for several different reasons as it strengthens the meaning of corp membership, while also meaning these moon belts are then worth undocking and fighting a wardec for since they are valuable.

[Vasama]

I have a suggestion about the citadel vulnerability timer during TiDi. I suggest kind of hybrid between wall clock and time increase on the timer. Actually this idea is related to the GM Bobby Fishers chess clock:
1st: Should the system be under TiDi before the structure comes out then some time is added to the clock in relation to the amount of TiDi.
Once the timer starts its count down and enough damage lands, timer stops. Some more time would be added to the timer in relation to the percentage of TiDi in the system for each minute (or other time unit) the damage cap is reached. There would also be the hard cap how long that time could be maybe 20 to 30min?

Should the the structure be vulnerable little longer than original 15 min that should not really matter if the fight in the system is supposed to be big enough to cause TiDi in the first place. But little extra time would give pilots who drop etc due server issues to log back on and take part to the action little better.

Naturally this kind of dynamic clock mechanism should be well documented so all sides of the conflict understand how it works.

Vasama

[Yoshi_Kanfar]

@Nevyn_Auscent

And means the corp can’t hide it’s miners in an NPC corp from a war dec.

They could, of course, ACL ex-Corpies individually to allow them to mine while avoiding the Dec. Yet restricting permission to Corp members only seems overly severe and will block many potential interactions e.g. “I’ll help mine yours if you help mine mine”, payment for mining rights, etc.

Perhaps all structure ACLs should be based on Corporations rather than individuals, and if you want to allow NPC-corp members to do something you have to allow everyone to do it. Another nudge to get people out of NPC-corps, although detrimental to people (like me!) who grant facility access to their NPC-corp research alts and similar.

[Sage_Mo]

In light of the fight yesterday, it seems that the GTFO module is the worst possible decision for citadel warfare.

[Kynami_Vaille]

Actually they are perfectly able to dodge the wardec and still mine using ACLs to white-list shell corporations as needed. Which dodges the question of ex-corp members being in white lists they shouldn’t be later on down the road. Also considerably less overhead for the C-level to keep track of, because either the shell corporation needs access or it doesn’t. Not to mention the ease of just hopping between shell corporations as needed as the deccers waste 50m+ and the guys dodging it laugh and spend 2m+ to hop to another shell corp.

[Soldarius]

I did. But it was before Citadels, Refineries, and ECs. I have not tried it since then. So it is possible it may no longer be possible to probe hisec moons. Not sure why CCP would change that since the results were until recently irrelevant, and soon will actually be relevant.

For example, I scanned Ichoriya, a .5 system in Black Rise with a number of level 4 agents. It had nothing more impressive than Platinum iirc.

[Andaara]

I do not understand what this means for low sec smal corp industrials.

Can someone tell me what happens with production / industry-Jobs after the structure has been successfully attacked the first time? or when are they locked and listed as possible loot for the attacker?

[Petrified]

@CCP_Lebowski

No, on release day players will have to replace them with Standup Fighters. Standup Fighters will require a normal version plus some extra material to manufacture.

If regular fighters cannot be used in Upwells, then can we get BPOs before release so the structure fighters can be produced and ready on release?

[yamamoto_suhara]

CAN WE REMOVE THIS CANCER CALLED CITADELS FROM GAME?thank you very much

[Zoltan_Lazar]

I really can’t tell if that was a troll post or not, because there’s some seriously misguided stuff in there.

First off, “the biggest asset is the structure itself” - um what? A hus is half a month’s subscription. It’s a few hours of decent PvE. The keepstar fight saw 1000x the cost in ships on field than the keepstar itself. Even the most basic citadel killing fleet will cost several times the structure. Even the most poor corp will have 100 times the assets in a given structure as its value. Most corps will have 1000x. Citadels are dirt cheap and stupidly spammable.

Second, complaining about the 24 hour vuln window as if that’s the only timer. Do you know anything about these structures? No one EVER defends the shield timer. You’re getting a crazy amount of extra safety now since you can so easily choose both day and time of the hull timer. Plus these new T2 weapons will make a defense of the structure need just the gunner.

If you want to hold people on grid, get in a ship. POS’s had automated weapons because they could only be on moons. If you were warping to a POS you were there to shoot the POS. Citadels can be anywhere. On grid with gates. On grid with NPC stations. On grid with ore fields. It’s basically impossible to kill anyone who is with a friendly citadel. To engage miners under their athanor right now you need someone willing to sacrifice their ship since you’re guaranteed to not get 1 ship out.

Citadels are stupidly and completely defender weighted right now. What is damaging to small corps is that you simply can’t put up enough of a fleet to defend against a corp ten times your size no matter what changes they make. POS’s were even harder for small corps, citadels have shifted it towards the small guys a little but it’s simply impossible to make 100 vs 1000 an even field without ruining everything else.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

@Kynami_Vaille

Actually they are perfectly able to dodge the wardec and still mine using ACLs to white-list shell corporations as needed. Which dodges the question of ex-corp members being in white lists they shouldn’t be later on down the road. Also considerably less overhead for the C-level to keep track of, because either the shell corporation needs access or it doesn’t. Not to mention the ease of just hopping between shell corporations as needed as the deccers waste 50m+ and the guys dodging it laugh and spend 2m+ to hop to another shell corp.

That would only be true if the ACL applied to the mining field. If we used standard loot mechanics then the ACL is irrelevant for field ownership, and only corp/alliance matters. So they would go suspect even if they were on the ACL.

[Lantean]

Ok and I see your points but you’re missing some key things too.

Firstly, to some corps it is the biggest asset considering it could mean the difference between their only safe harbour or death… it changes an age old feature of systems that never had a station to begin with that may be of benefit to a small corp. It’s the biggest asset not just because of the structure but because of what they want to do with that structure… the fit costs too you know.

Mentioning numbers like you have is exactly my point… your mentioned big alliances and their bling fleets of supers and subcap. I’m talking about the smaller corps with miners… mission runners. Groups that can afford maybe a handful of structures to make the game fun to play for them. May it be building/mining/research. So yes… one supercarrier these days goes for the same price as two fortizars… Most corps do not have that kind of capital/investment.

The 24hr vulnerablity window is fine… I have no issue with it, make it more like the days of the old pos… But make it have the same feature, make it have an automated defence similar to pos warfare. Not all people who warp to poses are their to shoot it… could be wanting to scan a moon, see who owns the structure… intel gathering to either decide on attack or leave it be. And look, nobody might ever defend the shield timer, but the fact remains it should still be an option to and if you can’t because you have a life outside eve and can’t be on 23/7 then give it some automation.

The additional two timers are just delaying the inevitable, you can’t remove any hull assets to restart, your structure is going to go down unless they get bored or they can’t come to the next timer. And tech2 weapons? Lol I wonder how much that will cost… then it will be ridiculously priced structures.

To engage a miner on athanors your going to lose a ship? Why? You can do any number of things to catch them… doesn’t mean you’re going to die.

The fight in 9-4 was a ■■■■ show of epic proportions, it’s going to fuel even more hate for getting them nerfed to the absolute hilt.

Tidi should affect structure repair timers, the tactics however used by the attackers where not exactly great. Sitting remotely off and using bombers… no wonder it didn’t go down. Losing bombers left and right, but with that amount of people on the keepstar, it should have been destroyed.

I see your side of the discussion, I really do… but I also see the side of this update that is going to see a huge amount of small corps being screwed over… it’s going to be damaging to small groups of people is what I’m saying… because as you rightly say, they can’t defend against the bigger entities. But at least give them something that will be beneficial…

Thanks for coming back to post though, appreciate it.

[Zoltan_Lazar]

Can you point out specific things in this patch that negatively impact small corps? There are complaints about citadels overall and complaints about this specific patch. This is the thread for this patch.

The 24 hour window doesn’t matter because you weren’t defending your 3 hour window anyways. The whole point is that you only need to defend 1 of the 3 timers. This gives you more control over the last 2 timers, which are the only ones you’re going to bother with anyways.

The new T2 weapons means that you need even less of a defense fleet so that massively benefits small groups.

Citadels are massively better for small groups than POS’s. The issue with making them any better is that there’s basically nothing you can do to help small groups that doesn’t get magnified for large groups. While the stuff you bring up will be an issue when NPC stations are removed they currently still exist. Smaller groups have lived out of NPC stations instead of POS’s for a reason.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

@Lantean

To engage a miner on athanors your going to lose a ship? Why? You can do any number of things to catch them… doesn’t mean you’re going to die.

Please explain how you can ‘catch’ a ship in an NPC corp in highsec without losing your own.
Bumping is not an answer since it doesn’t work effectively against anyone who isn’t AFK or in an Orca/Freighter.

@Zoltan_Lazar

The new T2 weapons means that you need even less of a defence fleet so that massively benefits small groups.

You obviously have never worked out the DPS of a high sec citadel. The weapons are so painfully anaemic it’s not funny. T2 weapons is not going to significantly impact on this.
As for the timers. It’s quite possible to be down to your hull timer simply because you spend 2 days offline. That’s not reasonable when talking about small corps of 10-20 players (Which can easily be 40 or 50 characters in corp). They aren’t going to be able to maintain any sort of 7 day presence. Hence why some people want automated defences. I don’t know if automation is the right answer personally but it is a problem that it’s very easy to end up on your hull timer and your structure shut down well outside any of your regular play time for a smaller group due to the lack of 7 day coverage.

[Zoltan_Lazar]

Then don’t use citadels in hisec if you can’t defend them…?

You don’t need a 7 day presence. You need a ONE HOUR a week presence, because you can choose the exact time of day on day of the week to defend your hull timer.

Also, you’re acting like it’s impossible to fuel a citadel. You have a full seven days before they can destroy your citadel. That is far far longer than POS’s. That is exactly the same as it is now. The only potential reduction in timers is for outside of hisec and even then it’s just potential and requires scouting.

Also, automated defenses won’t do anything. Anyone attacking a citadel assumes there will be a gunner.

[Jonathan_Rotineque]

I really think you have nailed it here. I liked your Athanor explanation. It holds true for the Raitaru too.

We had a moment in time where the Tatara made it possible for a small to medium mining corp to be able to defend it self. I for a brief moment I was thinking how nice it would be to no longer be the Fish in a Barrel served up on a Silver Plated default warp in that PvPers don’t have scan or even look very hard for. We could actually lock hold and POP some of the attackers. No way we can kill them all but we can at least have some impact on their choice to stay or flee.

PvPers should not get easy kills. The system is lopsided and its no ones fault. Its just an inherent and probably unavoidable design flaw. Here is what I mean.

In Null and Low, Miners want to mine way more than they want to PvP. So, they are inherently poor at PvP. If a PvPer enters system, Miners must now PvP or run. PvPers want to PvP and mostly dislike mining. When a Miner enters their system, never will you see a PvPer forced to mine and it is highly unlikely that they must run.

Nerfs to Citadels and Warp bubbles eliminated the impassable gate scenario. This next update eliminates the Tethered Carrier Gate Camp. 24/7 vulnerability just makes sense as these structures will ultimately replace POSs.

Citadels are combat centric Fortresses. They are low skill and relatively low cost super powerful structures fixed in space. In reality and in the bulk of SciFi is the concept of Defenders advantage. Even at that, any structure not supported by a fleet is ultimately going down. Its simply a matter of how many ships you need to get the job done.

Thank you for your post and insights.
Cheers!
JR

[Tiddle_Jr]

• Since we call them structure they should not have any armor timers, its big and fat hull with force shield arround it. Please make those self repair by manually activated thing which require actual energy waste etc.
• The price tag, full fitted KS is like = to 6 full fit pimped Titans and how many in terms of isk was on field? So make those things cost a real money
• make it equal to incursion hq, you need well balanced group of ships with limited numbers world participants and the more atteckers bring the less dps they make, so its like stacking penalties same goes to defenders.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

Yes. You have 7 days before they can destroy it. And you should be able to be online for the hull timer. But from war Dec declared to armour reinforced and structure offline can be 48 hours if well timed. And to prevent that does require 7 days coverage.

It’s a massive change in timers for highsec citadels. Don’t try and pretend otherwise. Before you knew exactly when it could be attacked and could time that to your play time as well as having time between the timers to get help.
Now your structure can be turned off and you only get your last gasp defence to save it.

Automated defences will prevent people doing the initial attacks while you aren’t online and therefore facing zero opposition in them. Yes they can come prepared but it sets a minimum level of commitment to attack a citadels shield timer having them. Rather than just trolling people casually. Is this a good thing? Maybe. Maybe not.

[Zoltan_Lazar]

Being reinforced doesn’t stop you from doing anything besides refitting. You should already be combat fit. Not sure what you mean by “turned off.”

Automated defenses wouldn’t change anything because any attacker is assuming there will be someone to man it and shoot them anyways.