Armour reinforced and hull being next timer means all your services turn off. So yes it does stop you doing stuff.
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Services in citadels get turned off once they reach structure reinforcement timer, it’s what they do in hisec, a sort of denial of services attack.
Anyway - automated attack will change a lot about this current game play. For smaller groups it’s a god send… for bigger groups like pandemic horde… it would be a nuisance because it’s not attacking the right targets in the correct way they want.
Primarily my points are focusing on lowsec…
And please don’t be that guy that says don’t be in lowsec… or 0.0 or in citadels. You’re perpetuating this old mantra that smaller groups should just be pigeon-holed into this category of stay where it’s safe please…
It means we don’t get to branch out and try these new features… of course there is risk, and of course there is a lot of different scenarios that would kill anyone. But stop being that person of just sit down and shut up tripe that everyone else spouts.
We need more than one hour to effectively keep a structure going . And if you read the notes on this patch and Dev response… it’s two hours either side of the hour and day you choose… some people in small groups have family’s, jobs… Commitments that are not worth mentioning. But still this is an issue for a group of small timers who want to own a structure in any part of space…automate things at least gives them some solace that they fought back when they could or when the structure could.
And the weapons are severely underpowered as it is… even fit for capital warfare… it might give the fancy numbers but you will be hard pressed to fight someone who is 400k off with a group of carriers just casually beating away at your structure. Give us point defence on all structures. That will take care of that issue because let’s be clear… It is an issue! Tech2 weapons are not going to drastically have any difference on the game play of structure combat… please don’t confuse yourself here, this isn’t a saving grace for smaller groups… it’s just another resource we have to buy in order to stay current and try and survive.
Will it make a difference? Probably not… but taking away the fact we can’t hold someone on grid or we can’t set the guns/point defence to auto shreds the enemies or neuts or whatever, just limits the small groups ability to hold anything… and then you are right, don’t bother… just dock in NPC until they’re gone and your back to this thread of all NPC stations being removed… then we have to live out of citadels (long way off I know but still) you would hope that there was something in place to make sure you can effectively hold a structure.
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You can relax, there is no way all NPC stations are ever going to be removed.
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Perhaps you can think about an ore bay at Athanors - since Rorquals are not able to dock, the should be able to transfer their mining hold to the >refinery< structure without lightering
People were just complaining that they don’t want to have to fuel things because none of the services are worth keeping on. If someone attacks your citadel it is with the intent to destroy it. None of the services are that important for defense. Shield timer is meaningless, it’s just a “hey we’re here.”
The armor timer is still day of the week chosen by the defender. You only need to have a defense fleet one day of the week. If you cannot manage that there is nothing that CCP can do short of completely invulnerable structures to help you hold a citadel. An astrahus is an impossible to jam or ewar super that only costs 1b.
I’m not saying that t2 weapons will be your saving grace. I’m saying that nothing in this patch negatively impacts small groups. You will have the same issue after this patch as you did before this patch, that you are trying to defend against insurmountable odds.
A properly fitted astrahus can kill any dread. If they are sitting far away with carriers then undock subcaps and kill their fighters. It takes a decently large subcap fleet with a good logistics wing to kill an astra even with no defense fleet. Their defenses are stupidly powerful already for how little they cost.
Can you explain to me why you have to live in citadels? NPC stations still exist only because of small groups. If you don’t have enough people to not have your “commitments” overlap then NPC stations are the place for you.
When the NPC station removal thread comes you can debate that. Until then, this is the thread for this patch. Argue about things actually in this patch.
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No it’s not. The armour timer is a day chosen by the attacker. It’s the next time of day the defender chose after 24 hours +/- 2 from when they reinforce it. So a well timed attack the Armour timer is going to be about 24 hours after the attacker hit the Citadel.
No, this is nothing to do with not fueling the structure. Services get shut down when the structure is onto it’s hull timer. This means for smaller groups which are common in highsec, you can have your structure shut down without getting a chance to respond because both shield & armour reinforcements can be done during your dead days.
Since you don’t get to pick the day of the week for either of those fights. The only fight you get to pick the day of the week for is the hull fight now.
As for expecting a smaller group to ‘overlap commitments’, you seriously have a warped idea of what size group should be permitted to own a citadel. Under that requirement you are saying your group has to be several hundred to be entitled to own a citadel since you need 7 days coverage where you can put a real fleet on grid (Probably something like 10-12) to be able to contest the armour timer. And the attacker can pick your weakest day to have the armour timer on.
I mean seriously, go and read the Dev blog, you are getting facts wrong all over the place here.
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Sorry, meant the hull timer. You’re acting like the structure getting services shut down is as good as killing it.
First people say that they don’t want to fuel because they don’t need the services. Then they say that the services getting shut down is the end of the world and makes defense impossible. Which is it? (hint: it’s the former)
There’s nothing about citadel services that are necessary for defense.
You still keep dodging the question. What’s wrong with just being in an NPC station?
I have said neither of those things. Nor have I seen anyone here saying such things related to defence. You seem to be inventing statements.
However having your EC or Refinery shut down while your corp doesn’t have many if any members on for a day or two, and then the services are shut down for between 6 & 12 days, that’s pretty significant. People can shut down your 0.5 moon mining for 12 days. And then they can just do it again because you don’t have Monday/Tuesday play time due to work etc…
As for ‘what’s wrong with just being in an NPC station’… Sure, you are right, you ‘could’ just ignore all the Upwell structure bonuses and the new types of game play they enable. until you are a 10,000 player Corp able to cover 23/7 time zones. But expecting that is a joke. That is why we have timers. The problem is CCP have set up a timer structure with the new 2.0 mechanics where you can be shut down for massive time without reasonable chance for a small group to respond.
The old timer system meant you could only be shield attacked on a day of your choosing so you should be able to respond to the attack. The new system means that you are already shut down and only get to save the structure. Ok, saving the structure is relevant, but so is a 12 day shut down of all your structure services as well.
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If you don’t have the manpower to have anyone online for your armor timers then you don’t have enough people to defend the structure anyways and it’s a moot point.
Also, it costs a decent bit of time and money to wardec someone just to take on a hisec athanor. It doesn’t even drop any loot. No one knows how the moon seeding will work out yet but I’m going to guess anyone serious enough about mining to care is already mining in nullsec. There will be plenty of moons to go around.
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I’m aware that astras are very effective when fit correctly… and I’m aware of the damage they can do especially to a dread…but they can only do that if I’m there.
As for carriers sitting off… again please re-read my point on small corps. And IL reread yours on not having a structure and going to live in NPC stations again. We will just go round in circles.
Nevyn has hit this issue on the head, we want a sense of ownership and we want to be able to avail of the bonuses that these structures give.
Asking CCP to think about the little guy here and at least give us an automated weapons platform like poses had, isn’t something that should be off the table. I’m pretty active but there is a few days that I just can’t be online for various reasons… imagine coming back to evemail that your assets are in safety and yeah… that structure you had a week or so ago is gone, because an attacker hacked my structure, picked a nice time and attacked, then gone to armor… stopped my services (research/manufacture/whatever else) and destroyed my hull all within the seven days but I was off with work, and the guys in the corp are new so don’t exactly know what to do and haven’t been online cause of work commitments…
Let’s rebuild move area and start again… I’ve had to do this a few times, it’s hard and feels more like a chore, to the point I really don’t want to do it anymore. This is a game that’s meant to be fun, and enjoyable… I’m not enjoying myself if I’m outside eve thinking about my structures and assets… thinking about pixels and canceling ■■■■ to come on. I shouldn’t have to do this… That’s not an unreasonable request.
CCP, please reconsider some of these new changes and implement a system that works just as much for the attacker as it does for the small guy trying to play when he can.
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I am looking forward to all these changes. Thanks.
But my aim is to encourage interaction between groups by allowing control over who can “legally” mine. Permission to mine for everyone, or for people who promise to ally with you if war-decced, or those who rent an office at that station, etc can then be the choice of the mining corp.
Yes, people could switch to a shell corp and continue mining. But the war-deccers could also mine with relative impunity – they’ve already paid CONCORD for Crimewatch immunity, so they wouldn’t get a suspect flag either and would only have to worry about WTs in-system defending by ship or refinery guns.
War-dec corps with “aggressive” mining divisions – PVP through Resource Wars 
KISS principle. You are suggesting quite a hodge podge of mechanics here. Along with a lot of weird stuff potentially happening.
Keeping it to just the Corp/Alliance places limits on it, rather than it being all in the corps favour pretty much. And creates a drive to actually form larger corps in high sec which is something that currently is badly lacking.
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[quote=“Nevyn_Auscent, post:458, topic:51885, full:true”]
KISS principle.[/quote]
KISS is fine until corrupted by feature creep, so I’ve got into the habit of asking for all the features early in the process 
But, seriously, the only feature here is “mining field access mediated by structure ACLs” – if that can be implemented, all else flows from systems already in place. Which leaves one question for us – “Will this make our game better?” – and one for the Devs --“Is this worth doing?”.
Any chance we could get the “control” access setting split up into two groups:
- Ability to use weapons
- Ability to configure or online/offline fittings, remove ammo and fighters?
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They have the capability of knowing who mines what, so why not make it so that if you mine someone’s belt without permission you go suspect.
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I feel like achieving switching to sim time for the repair timer , even if it would only apply to XL structures, and maybe only during their hull timer, would be a good compromise. –Heck I’d even consider having all upwell final/hull repair timers work on simulation time.
Any organization capable of anchoring a keepstar doesn’t need the additional protections as a defender. Anyone who anchors a keepstar has self selected themselves to the big leagues and announced their presence. I feel that it would be fair to say that they have self selected themselves to endure a 4 hour long defense.
I feel the same about the XL EC, the sotiyo and any future XL player gates as well.
Some Questions:
- Given these changes will there be a period in which structures can remove their rigs (non-destruction) to enable unanchoring.
1a) Will refineries already in 0.5sec be able to unanchored and not lose rigs to relocate to a moon?
- As you can moon mine in 0.5 space will you be able to do reactions in 0.5 space?
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This is good news. The GTFO plan for high sec would just limit fighting doctrines imo. We would just turtle up and warp back once hit by a GTFO. We agree make fortizars harder in high sec to kill, but dont force specific types of doctrines. Personally id not employ the GTFO in high sec.