It is cowardice to shy away from violence after mutual compromise fails.
And it absolutely has, Lord Newelle. We did try. I tried. The idea of a completely peaceful transition is a pipe dream.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
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I wasn’t talking about Samira.
Your efforts, frankly, were getting places. It was you that broke before you could begin to reap the rewards. You lost your mind at realizing it would be a long and arduous road that would require you to use deference and tact instead of the indignant rage you so admired in Mizhara.
Speaking of Mizhara, how’s that vengeful little dog doing anyway? I’m sure she helps you sleep at night, coddling you for your choices.
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No, they were not. For everything we did, the problems only got worse.
Just when I think it’s not going to be possible for you to be more of a douchenozzle…
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If you want to turn this into personal insults, the Off-topic thread is that way: Off-Topic Thread vol. 2
This FAQ should be shared among the tribes along with large supplies of high explosives. “Excellent! informative a true Minmatar classic”
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Now, there is the question of when to rebel. For myself, I do not consider that to be my call in the vast majority of cases. Asked for intel and expert strategical advice, sure, I could find someone to provide it, but for example in the case of Thebeka, we only entered the scene because it had already started. EM’s reason to come to Thebeka in the first place was the Rebellion.
Was it not wise for the local resistance to take the Deathglow attacks as their Vak’Atioth? Would they be better off today if they had not taken that chance, had laid low, waited for a better one? Would it be better for the reformists? Better for Samira Kernher’s efforts? Possibly. It is very difficult to deduce post-hoc what would have happened if a decision had been made completely differently, and even harder to predict the future those choices will bring.
But crucial to this discussion, you have to realize that neither Samira nor any Minmatar aid from the outside was who made that decision. Certainly we prolonged the rebellion - I at least hope we did - and certainly we changed how it was seen from outside - at least it was not buried and forgotten like so many of these things are. But, for the hundredth time: we did not start it. That die was already cast and falling, and the only decision we could make was whether to add ours or not.
You all want to believe that without outside influence, your world would be neat and orderly and peaceful. Oh if not for the Federation, oh if not for the Jove, oh if not for the Blooders, oh if not for the Minmatar! But that is simply not true. Rebellion in your Empire is not something imported. It is your own doing.
PS.
Aria Jenneth chose to come here and engage in the discussion. No one is “using her” by disagreeing with her; she chose to enter herself. Have some respect for that choice.
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This. We didn’t start the fire. It was always burning.
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The first step is realizing that each of you reading this now is potentially an agent of societal change. Whenever progressive, radical, or even revolutionary change has occurred, the impetus has come from people just like yourselves. They got off their ass and did it.
The best time to rebel was yesterday. The next best time is now.
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There’s a lot flying around so gonna just focus on this.
People who are attacked don’t usually think calmly about how they can best respond to dissuade the attacker. They usually react defensively, and answer aggression with aggression if they can. Conciliatory gestures under those circumstances suggest weakness to a lot of people, often including the aggressor, so even people who might have some misgivings about their role in things will often set those misgivings aside and protect themselves.
There are forces in the Empire right now militating for a hot war with the Republic, who seem to believe the Amarr learned exactly the wrong lesson from Vak’Atioth, that they were strongest as conquerors and should get right back up and resume conquering, who respond to your “Bring it on!” from a week or so ago with, “Will do!”
Hitting the Empire is not going to make it more concilliatory. It will strengthen those cries for war.
And while those cries ring in the air, “Hey, maybe we should consider some further reforms in how we handle the holding and freeing and, well, actually also the treatment of slaves,” isn’t going to be a suggestion that gets a lot of traction.
The two might not be mutually exclusive exactly, but they do work at cross-purposes. As a suggestion for what does maybe actually work, I kind of suspect that the strongest force for change withing the Empire might be the free-trade pact with the Federation.
I did do that. … Even interposed myself really. I don’t have complaints.
Only, I think his lordship was more saying that if you want to see social change within the Empire you’re better off yelling at him than at me, since he has better social leverage. I think it’s more Arrendis and maybe Samira he was talking to than you, Else.
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You do realize that these exact same words could be said to those who say “please don’t rebel, let us rather reform the system from inside out” to people in slavery?
Life’s full of little ironies, Else.
Anyway, I’m not talking so much to them as their enabler. I usually don’t have much I can say to captives here in the Empire, with I guess one or two exceptions. I like to listen though.
It is, that.
But what I am saying that you also cannot seriously expect people in slavery or those of us already out of it trust the whole “we are about to reform any minute now just let us live in peace” at this point of history, if you seriously do understand the point you made above.
I say again: I honestly do not believe reforms and rebellions are mutually exclusive. It is a weak reformist movement that gives up trying to stop the abuser because the victim did not sit still and take the beating.
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Well, but even in the situation you described it’s normally going to be hard to get anybody to listen until the fight’s over. They’ve got other stuff on their minds.
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Indeed.
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I think this depends on how radical the reformist is. Those of us who have been working towards moderate change over longer timelines have had to deal with our work being scrutinized. Amarr is a reactionary society, rebellions and other attempts at revolutionary change tend to cause the collective whole to dig in and halt all change which does not come from the top.
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Rebellions spark reform. Reform very frequently comes through chaos, turmoil, and, unfortunately, violence. Order rarely allows for it – that’s why it’s order. Gheinok was an outcast, derided for his beliefs and banished. Amash-Akura founded the Empire through war. The Moral Reforms came about through civil war. Aritcio’s atrocities weren’t stopped until a large public outcry from Kor-Azor commoners – people prepared to tear down his palaces and put his head on a spike – demanded it. And the greatest changes the Empire made towards peace and reconciliation occurred following Vak’Atioth and the Great Rebellion. Lord Newelle likes to point to Heideran VII as an example that peaceful reform was possible, but Heideran VII was a conqueror before he was a pacifist, only becoming the latter after war made him realize changes were needed.
This is not an issue that people are going to go, ‘you know what, maybe we should change this’. It never has been. The people who support it are instead an enemy, and that enemy must be beaten before they will ever consider change. Amarr’s arrogance and corruption must be broken, before it can give way to what is right. And yes, things will absolutely get worse before they get better. They always do when you come before the threshold. Lines will be drawn, and no one will be able to stand in the middle anymore.
Only through many hardships is a man stripped to his very foundations, and in such a state, devoid of distractions, is his soul free to soar.
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It’s not going to get any traction while they’re convinced that ‘it won’t be fixed, because it isn’t broken’, and that the existing order ‘is the best we can expect to do’, either. To sit there insisting ‘look, there’s no point demanding change because change would just make it worse’ and, simultaneously, claim ‘well you’re not going to get any change if you keep attacking!’ is just disingenuous. Taken together, it becomes ‘there will be no change while you attack, and there will be no change while you don’t’.
At that point, there’s no reason not to support the violent overthrow of the existing order. It at least presents a chance, no matter how small, of change.
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Come, then, Samira.
You were my compatriot, my student, and my friend. I’d have done a lot to help you. In fact, I did.
Even if, even at that time, I thought you were the saddest person I knew.
You lost your place in this society, let yourself be manipulated into destroying yourself, played for a fool. Now you seem to feel your only course is sainthood … to prove that you are right, and the world is wrong.
So be it; I’ll accept my role in this and stand between you and that desperate destiny.
Lost one, traitor, heretic, you will not have your wish.
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