Nope, because at best you’re in a faster Inty. At worst the enemy is in a faster one. In either case the relative speed of the ships is going to be close enough that the one that starts running first will win, whether they’re running to escape or running to catch.
Plus when the only way to counter something is to bring that thing then you have a dead-end in your metagame and that’s not healthy for the game.
Could this be a good role for escort carriers then?
Give the fighters speed and tracking bonus. This makes them large ships which are designed to catch small, fast moving targets that other ships cant.
As I said, it’s not hard to kill an inty, and Fighters don’t need any kind of bonus to do so. A single squad of Light Fighters will rip an Interceptor a new docking port in no time, so long as the Inty actually stays on-grid long enough for that to happen.
Also even if we did somehow bill these as that sort of counter, the problems inherent with allowing Fighters into High Sec still outweigh the benefits of this, and while they would be very good against Inties they would be even better against everything else, just like regular Carriers.
We don’t want or need a battleship that can launch capital sized fighters, we could do with dedicated battleship sized logistics ships for both armor (sort of covered with Nestor) and shield.
Like cruiser logi, it would have minimal DPS, 75 m3 drone bandwidth for combat drones with a 50m3 bonus to logistics drones (so 125m3 total for logi drones). Come in both T1 and T2 versions, with neither being so powerful as to remove the role of cruiser logi.
How; battleship logistics could be given a specific bonus/penalty to “hull size repped”. Battleships get good reps (like current logi, decent but not extraordinary) but smaller ships would be harder to keep alive (sig radius penalty on reps).
T2 versions could have a bonus to be able to use covert cynos but not covert cloak. Penalty to using a cloak, 1 minute reactivation delay, 30 second recalibration delay.
T1 versions can fit 1 X T1 command burst, T2 can fit 1 X T2 command burst, neither can fit Command burst rigs (so are limited to one only boost module).
T1, Armor (Amarr)
6 highs, 4 mids, 5 lows
6,100 PG
600 CPU
Bonuses;
Amarr Battleship - 4% to Armor resistances
Logistics - 10% Remote Armor Repair Amount - 20% Remote Armor Repair optimal and falloff.
Role Bonus - 50% reduction in remote repair effectiveness when Signature Radius is below 300m (small ships would receive reps as if they are at maximum falloff, at maximum falloff reps would be very low) Can fit 1 T1 command burst.
Another idea would be to use Battlecruisers
Prophecy;
6 highs, 4 mids, 5 lows
1,850 PG
450 CPU
Bonuses;
Amarr; 4% to Armor Resists
Logistics; 10% Remote Armor Repair Amount, 20% to optimal and falloff
Role Bonus; 100% to Medium Remote Armor Repair Amount, Can fit 1 Command Burst.
While I don’t think this is particularly OP I think the Nestor has shown pretty clearly that it’s a very niche ship concept. Logi Cruisers serve the role quite well with equal or lower training time required and have several advantages over any hypothetical Battleship Logi platform.
First off, lock speed. A Nestor takes much longer to lock even a Battleship sized target than a Logi Cruiser does.
Second, Battleships soak damage, Logi Cruisers avoid it. Overall this makes the Logi Cruiser much more survivable in larger fleet engagements.
Third, speed. Battleships are slow, and while Logi aren’t exactly fast they do a far better job of maintaining and controlling range than most Battleships do.
This is why the Nestor doesn’t see much use. If you solve those issues, or most of them, then what you basically have is a really really stupidly tanky Logi Cruiser and even if it reps less that’s probably a little OP…
I dunno, personally I wouldn’t complain if they threw in a T1, Navy, or Pirate hull(s) for Shield (or more for Armor) but I don’t think there’s any reason for a dedicated T2 hull for such a niche role like this. At the very least I think it would be better to do some kind of staged rollout using T1 to test the waters and see if there’s even any use case for something like this.
To be fair, the Nestor isn’t really good at being a logi, T1 cruisers have about double range and are more effective too. It’s good for emergency repair or at safe spots, but I wouldn’t count on it too much in combat.
The Nestor is actually one of the few ships with a Rep Effectiveness bonus. A single Nestor with a cap-booster fit can rep slightly more than two and a half Logi Cruisers (10.5 effective reps).
The reason they’re still not used is because of the issues I mentioned above.
Use case for T2 = Blops, that since the T3 “rebalance” (nerfs) doesn’t have viable logi.
Even before the changes T3 logi was very limited use, now it really just isn’t worth taking…
And your reasoning for saying you don’t like the idea, is at best elitist.
T1 cruiser logi is shite when it comes to repping anything bigger than a cruiser. They die faster than an immobile frigate and unless you have the numbers, you’ll never have enough of them to be useful.
A battleship or Battlecruiser platform would allow Battleships to be used more often as the cost of fielding viable logi is greatly reduced. Personally (as a pretty dedicated logi pilot) won’t field a 600 mil Guardian in a T1 battleship fleet, we use apostles instead. Again this eliminates newer players from experiencing the role, unless they have plenty of isk to buy or inject a character.
Speed of a battleship, really? In a battleship fleet battleship logi could just sit with the fleet instead of having to hide behind it. Speed is only an issue when you “have to” avoid engaging the enemy because if you do get engaged you’ll just start losing 600 mil ships (and eventually the fight).
The Nestor, is not a logi… It’s logistics role is an afterthought and not very well thought out, it costs too much for what it is capable of and that is the reasons they see so little use.
No-one in their right mind is going to field Nestor logi with a T1 battleship fleet and cruiser logi is often too expensive, so T1 battleships see little use outside blob fleets.
I see any way that encourages the use of rarely used ships as a good thing and yes by all means test the waters with a limited variety. Although, doing it with pirate or faction ships defeats the purpose of “cheap viable logi”, better to adapt something that is already available (and cheap) than create something new that will cost as much or more than what is available now…
It’s not that I don’t like the idea, I’m at best ambivalent about it.
Given the example of the Nestor though I’m just not sure there’s any real call for something like this. If Black Ops drops really need Logi support and it really needs to be Battleship sized I’d rather they just stuff some rep bonuses on the existing Black Ops hulls or something. It probably wouldn’t imbalance them and it wouldn’t require an entirely new T2 hull in an incredibly niche spot.
The base hull cost of a T1 Logi ship isn’t particularly greater than a T1 Battleship hull so this doesn’t make a lot of sense. A Guardian costs a grand total of 35m more in Jita than an Abaddon does, and that’s out of 240m. The reason a fleet Guardian fit costs 600m is because it gets fitted with a lot of expensive modules since they really want them to stay alive.
Something the size of a Battleship would probably be even more expensive to fit since a Dread with HAWs doesn’t need much help to start taking chunks out of a Battleship, whereas a Logi Cruiser only takes much damage from a HAW dread if there’s heavy ewar support or it has terrible transversal.
It’s not just about avoiding getting shot, it’s also about staying out of EWar range and making the things you’re supporting more attractive targets than you are. That means Logi are harder to pin down and kill compared to Battleships, no matter what role they’re in. A T1 BS hull is also going to soak reps a lot less effectively than a T2 resist equipped Logi Cruiser that’s also speed tanking damage at least to an extent.
But your supposed use case for T2 Blops Logi is Black Ops drops, where the hull costs as much or more than a Nestor and the existing solution, T3Cs, is both more effective at repping than a T2 Logi Cruiser and cheaper than a Nestor.
Overall I’m not really seeing why you think T1 Battleship Logi are a good idea, especially for a big fight. Battleships are slow, easy to catch and pin down, and vulnerable to a lot of stuff that Logi Cruisers aren’t because of the aforementioned. Cost isn’t really the deciding factor you seem to think it is since most of the cost in a Logi Cruiser hull is modules that are on there to make the ship harder to kill and more effective. If someone wants to field cheap Logi they can. No one does because cheap Logi die a lot easier than expensive Logi, so you easily get bang for buck out of them. If CCP put out a T1 Battleship that could perform as well as a 600m Logi Cruiser for only 250m then people would just take them and put another 3-400m of modules on them to make them perform better than a T2 Logi Cruiser and then you’ve got power creep.
Seriously - You just don’t know much about logi do you…
Yes guardians are bling fit most of the time - simply because they won’t survive if they aren’t.
Blops support was in direct response to you stating there is no use case - Even more so when you seem to be deluded into thinking a T3 logi is better than a dedicated T2 logi cruiser. Sorry but they just aren’t.
Since the T3 nerfs, I’ve spent hours on sisi with others trying to find a T3 logi fit that is viable and it just ain’t happening.
Even before the changes only the very niave would consider T3 logi to be better than T2 cruiser.
T3 cruiser is around the same price as a Nestor and reps just under half what a T2 cruiser logi does with the added drawbacks of either having no repping power or no cap life. 4 medium remote reps (what the subsystem is bonused for) + 10mn AB + medium cap booster (navy 800s) has 2 mins 7 seconds cap life. Not what you’d call useful… You can’t remote cap them since they just don’t have the PG or range on cap transfers to do so, leaving you with a T3 ship that cost a billion isk that reps less than a T1 logi…
You really should look at what it is you’re commenting on Before putting your foot in your mouth.
As for Ewar range, unless you’re not in range to rep your fleet (or playing the sniper game, which personally I’m a bit over), you’re always in Ewar range. EG; an unbonused remote sensor dampener, the bane of a logi pilots life, has an effective range of 90k, Ecm is even worse…
I’m not sure where you go the idea a T1 battleship logi perform as well as a T2 cruiser logi, pretty sure I explicitly said they shouldn’t - It’s easy to read something that isn’t written on the page when you’r looking for ways to discredit an idea… As for getting them to outperform a T2 logi with fittings, what fitting exactly do you see making that possible?
There are no deadspace or faction large remote reps (with my suggestion, even fitting T2 remote reps means reducing tank by having to use rigs to increase PG, then you still need to up the CPU so lose another rig or low slot there, you only have limited slots for fitting (so can’t just add more reps), they have limited low and mid slots so not too much upgrading available there.
You do mean a Nestor with 3 cap boosters (all running for as long as you’re running reps), don’t you?
A single cap booster (with navy 800’s) running just 4 reps (needed to rep more p/s than a T2 logi) will see you cap out in under 2 minutes.
Even running 3 reppers (about the same as a guardian reps) you need to cap boosters.
As I said in my original post, the Nestor just wasn’t well thought out, it is “ok” at several roles but not “good” at any. The only useful role for a Nestor is an emergency refit platform for supers and titans. Dump it from your ship bay, refit and watch it die…
I think the real limiter there is that cloaky T3C logi is chosen for BlOps drops because T1 and T2 logistics cruiser and frigates, other than the Etana, right along with the Nestor… can’t actually take a BlOps bridge.
Logi that can’t drop isn’t very useful on the drop.
I’ve got a few. They don’t out-rep the T2 cruisers, of course, but the Legion and Loki can both be set up as viable logistics/boosting (simultaneous) platforms.
Yes, I do actually, it’s one of the first T2 ships I trained into in Eve and is probably the one I’ve spent the most time in…
Saying that non-bling Logi “won’t survive” is an inaccurately absolutist statement. They survive better and will survive in a larger engagement than cheaper Logi but cheaper Logi can do just fine in smaller engagements. It all depends on what type of fight you’re going into. As I said above, the reason people bling fit Logi is because the return on investment is worthwhile.
I think you should run the numbers on the new T3C Logi fits before declaring that. A T3C can rep more than a T2 LC. The trade off is that the fit is expensive and the ship is relatively slower and less tanky due to larger sig and slower speed. They also have a bit of a falloff problem at long ranges, but for Blopsing that’s not much of a concern.
About the only thing here that’s actually accurate is the price, which I was wrong about. I hadn’t looked at the price of Nestor hulls in a while.
You can get way more than 4 reps on a T3C and have it be cap stable or close, and if you use deadspace reps then each Medium rep puts out as much repping power as a T2 Large.
But Neuts aren’t and while ECM and Sensor Damps are bad Neuts are about 100 times worse for actually killing Logi ships. Ditto for Webs.
An ECM’d or Sensor Damped Logi Ship is out of the fight temporarily. A neuted and webbed Logi ship is on its way back to the scrap heap in short order.
Your proposed ship would get 4.5 effective reps out of 3 actual rep modules while having six high slots, so in theory you could get 6 reppers out of 4. I sort of assumed you’d done the math on your own idea?
T3 logi, you can’t run more than 2 reps without capping out, using navy 800s. Even with just 2 reps and NO prop mod you only have 4m 27s cap life (with cap booster cycling). This will return you all of 94.8 hp/s, all reps running will give you 246 hp/s (with Ctypes) and 46 seconds cap life.
Where a Guardian or Onieros with 2 large 2 medium T2 reppers will give you 309 hp/s.
Pretty much all I fly is logi on 3 dedicated alts.
I’m not sure how you tank your logi but with a 1600 plate, you can’t fit 6 medium reppers, you just don’t have enough PG. With 4 mediums and 2 smalls you’re at 94% PG, 98% CPU. One medium Ctype medium rep is 47.4 hp/s, a T2 large is 103 hp/s. Not sure where you’re getting your stats from but I’d go check them, very carefully - I took mine from ships I have fit in my ship hangar.
Not sure about the “neuts kill logi” statement, only time I’ve died to a neut was the OP thing Citadels have. Aside from that any logi pilot worth having in fleet knows how to keep a cap chain up, so neuts are of little consequence. Command destroyers are the overall biggest issue for logi, not that they can kill you, just remove you from being in effective range. Best counter to that is to keep logi as close as possible to the main fleet, which means they have to be able to survive.
You also have it ass about for fit types. Small gang I always use deadspace fits (less logi - need to survive longer), only in large fleets where there is an abundance of logi would I consider using a disposable T2 fit…
My idea wasn’t meant to be OP, it was to provide something new and different. Your original complaint was that it would be OP, now it seems it is that it isn’t powerful enough… Please make up your mind…
NB; It actually has the exact same rep bonuses as a Nestor…
You’re actually patently wrong there… I mean…
Shield Loki, cap stable:
[Loki, Arrendis]
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Shadow Serpentis Damage Control
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
10MN Afterburner II
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Shield Command Burst II, Shield Harmonizing Charge
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Loki Core - Immobility Drivers
Loki Defensive - Augmented Durability
Loki Offensive - Support Processor
Loki Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers
Armor Loki, 5m29s (effectively cap stable under combat conditions):
[Loki, Arrendis, Armor]
Shadow Serpentis Damage Control
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Centus X-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Centus X-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener
Centum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Reactor Control Unit II
10MN Afterburner II
Thukker Large Cap Battery
Dark Blood Cap Recharger
Armor Command Burst II, Rapid Repair Charge
Corelum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Corelum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Corelum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Corelum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Corelum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Corelum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Loki Core - Augmented Nuclear Reactor
Loki Defensive - Augmented Durability
Loki Offensive - Support Processor
Loki Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers
Legion, 4-rep, 3m27s:
[Legion, Arrendis-A]
Shadow Serpentis Damage Control
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Armor Thermal Hardener
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Corelum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Thukker Large Cap Battery
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Information Command Burst II, Sensor Optimization Charge
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Legion Core - Augmented Antimatter Reactor
Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Offensive - Support Processor
Legion Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers
Legion, 6-reps, 7m24s
[Legion, Arrendis]
Shadow Serpentis Damage Control
Federation Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Armor Thermal Hardener
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Ammatar Navy Power Diagnostic System
Ammatar Navy Power Diagnostic System
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Thukker Large Cap Battery
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Information Command Burst II, Sensor Optimization Charge
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Legion Core - Augmented Antimatter Reactor
Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Offensive - Support Processor
Legion Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers
Would I recommend using any of these? Situationally, maybe. Would they be usable on blops drops? Nope! But your statement of absolutes there… ain’t.
These fits are really shiny!
Even if it’s not impossible, I wouldn’t call it probable either. How many T1 logis could you equip for the price of one of these ships, and how much more effective would they be?
How many T1 logi? A lot. How effective would they be? Depends: before or after the bombing run wipes them all out? 
But yes, these fits are fairly shiny. In fact, to make those fits really shine and work as well as they can, you want faction mindlinks, at least mid-grade slaves on the armor ships, and a full set of Genolutions along with SM-705/SE-805 on the shield Loki. Just to improve performance and tank. Never said it was easy, only that it could be done, after all. 
Then again, this is my last Guardian loss… and before you ask, yes, I feel terrible that I forgot to faction out the small cap booster, but it was a recent change.
This is pretty patently false.
Arrendis’ fits are a little overly shiny than what is strictly needed but you can get at least T2 Logi Cruiser performance out of a T3C for a lot less money than what he’s posted while cap stable.
You either need to start qualifying these statements or go spend some more time playing with fittings because some friends and I landed on some fits pretty close to what Arrendis linked that would be at least situationally usable with a Blops force in about an hour when these things were still on the test server.
No… go re-read, my original comment on your idea was that Battleship class Logi would be too niche and too easily killed to be worthwhile let alone to justify a T2 ship specifically for the purpose, since Battleship class Logi in general has a couple of major basic flaws as a concept. Namely how easily they take damage from big guns and how slow they are to lock anything that isn’t a Dread.
Well, you know, those are for my ships. I don’t design line ships that spendy 
Man just read through all this stuff again - and man am I more in favor of the balance team doing a balance pass on everything.
