[Faction Warfare] Spill-Over Effect

[Dantelion_Shinoni]

So, I have just finished watching again the Faction Warfare Roundtable at Fanfest 2022, and I ended up thinking a bit more about one aspect that emphasised by one of the devs: FW spilling over other zones.

To give some context, right now we know CCP is working on a Faction Warfare update and there is currently the start of a discussion in the EVE Online Official Discord about the current problems of the space and the nature of those changes. The conversation there is pretty heated, so I think (despite the pretty toxic nature of this place) the forums might be the best place to discuss this aspect.

Now, FW Spilling-Over Other Zones.

First off, I understand that this might be a way for CCP to introduce Content, and it might also be a way to make that storm in a teacup that @CCP_Aurora talked about being more impactful on the overall universe.

However, for whom are this change exactly?

Do FW players have something to gain being thrown as Content to Null-Sec players? Do High-Sec players have something to gain from seeing their systems stolen? Let’s try to review the positives and the negatives here

1/ FW Spilling to Null-Sec

The Positives here could be that FW would start being involved in the overall picture of the Universe, being forced (or encouraged) to front against what are the most influencial entities in the game right now.

The Negatives could be having the zone be completely taken over and/or inviting the Wolf into the Hen House by making it aware that there is a Hen House.

I do not see a scenario where Faction Warfare Militias invading Null-Sec would result in anything other than a complete stomping. Sure it would be good Content for Null, but would it be for FW when they see all their IHub camped and all their Structures razed?

CCP will have to provide details here, what does the Militias have to gain from this? And if they have something to gain from this what are the ways they think the Militias will have to be able to properly invade Null-sec space?

First thing that come to my mind would be some Empire NPC Fleets, just like the Triglavian Fleets, assisting the Militias? But that could be called unfair by Null Space? Or maybe access to a class of ships that could allow the Militias to fight on equal footing with Null entities (and here I am shamelessly plugging The Dantelion Plan)?

2/ FW Spilling to High-Sec

Here, I guess the goal would be to emulate what happened with the Triglavian Invasion, pretty much something that would upset the pretty conservative Status-Quo of the High-Sec. So the Positives would be adding dynamism to the Universe. And the fight between FW and High-Sec would a lot more interesting than the Null vs. FW.

But then again, the same question that was asked by Capsuleers siding with EDENCOM will be asked here?

What real recourse or compensation will the people who see their systems taken will have?

Again those are concerns that CCP will have to address and provide details about.

Conclusion

The idea might sound sexy, but it seems like yet another one like those Null Storms that were supposed to be a big deal, but are now yet another feature forgotten by CCP (and there I will again shamelessly plug my Stormchasers Ships, again the feature had potential) alongside Resource Wars, and without some explicit details from CCP, looks like something whose sole purpose would be to annoy people rather than provide the novelty of Pochven and the excitement of the Triglavian Invasion.

[Io_Koval]

@Dantelion_Shinoni

I do not see a scenario where Faction Warfare Militias invading Null-Sec would result in anything other than a complete stomping.

I think you completely missed the part where CCP mentioned individuals – including null sec blocs – can still declare allegiance for a faction, and therefore one null bloc could support a militia invading another null bloc.

It makes for messy storylines and messy “unlikely allies” kinds of real player stories. Kind of like the messy sides that ebbed and flowed during the Trig invasions. Unlike the clean sterile “Militia A+B vs C+D” and “two player coalitions set each other red in sov null”.

[Zhalyd_Lyehin]

As long as I don’t have to participate in it and as long as I, as someone who is not interested or involved in the war theatre, doesn’t suddenly have to work around systems going low sec or barring me from entering systems and stations (ie. exactly like FW space is in low sec for unaffiliated people), they can expand it to high sec for all I care. It should only affect those people who participate in it, no one else.

The Trig Shits/Edencom disaster should be a lesson for everyone who thinks this kind of content is fun at all. And in the end nothing matters that one side did as everyone can just opt out of it and invalidate the thousands of hours of activity that one side invested in this madness while the other side reaps all the benefits.

[Dantelion_Shinoni]

That’s a good point, easy to forget the Allegiance system since they haven’t given that much info about

However, I do worry that it will encourage toe-dipping, as in merely going with the less inconvenient (or advantageous) side and then promptly ignore FW and its entities.

Also it seems weird to me having Null-sec declare Allegiance to anything, isn’t the whole points of the Null Empires was that they have made a path for themselves in the political vacuum of Null?

[Dantelion_Shinoni]

I consider Pochven and its creation one of the greatest events of the Game, either lore-wise or gameplay-wise. People have asked for ways to make some High-Sec systems go negative for almost a decade, CCP provided!

Big problem with it was that EDENCOM got shafted and it is possible that all their efforts were in vain (the invasion would likely have continued until the number of systems needed was reached…)

[Io_Koval]

Great questions but honestly answering them is just pure opinion and speculation. They can’t really be answered until CCP releases details of the features and – optionally, because they don’t always say – provides the rationale for them.

[Suki_Vokkonen]

@Dantelion_Shinoni

Null-sec declare Allegiance to anything, isn’t the whole points of the Null Empires was that they have made a path for themselves in the political vacuum of Null?

In this instance, it is not the corps that declare allegiance (as with Militia corps today), but individuals, no matter which corp they are in.
And null sec is not only sov, there is also NPC null, like Venal for the Guristas. So someone could decide to help a pirate faction against some empire. Listen (again) at 5:38 for a question and answer about this.

EVE Online: EVE Fanfest 2022 – Factional Warfare Roundtable

To an unrelated question at 16:36, CCP Delegate Zero answered that they “don’t rule anything out”. So who knows, maybe sov null alliance will have to fight for their space from NPC… or even be able to claim NPC null systems ?

Like, I’m not familiar enough with the Triglavian invasion as I was not yet playing back then, but did Triglavians even tried to take sov null systems, or was it only against empire systems? From my understanding, they were interested in harvesting the stars, it was not about governing over people. So technically their invasion should have not be restricted to the 4 empires’ systems. I imagine it would be harder for NPC factions to take on Sov null systems, as alliances in null are obviously a lot more organized than solo players in HS to defend the systems. But that would give some more PVE content in null.

At 9:15, CCP Delegate Zero also say something about some system not being FW currently could become FW… I can’t hear the comment from the crowd and to what they actually laughed at, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was about taking down Jita (and potentially pretty much ruining the life of everyone doing business there).

I’m only at 21 minutes into the roundtable video, I’ll watch the rest now.

[LowKey_Chandler]

@Dantelion_Shinoni

Do High-Sec players have something to gain from seeing their systems stolen?

I was in on the Trig fighting to keep the Trigs from taking over systems. It was fun and team oriented, with fleets and comms and doctrines. What was NOT fun was the futility, since the results were not reversible. But if FW real estate wars were not permanent, but could be reversed by combat, it would be actual “useful” pvp. And folks in high sec would have a good reason to suit up and fight.

[LowKey_Chandler]

@Dantelion_Shinoni

that could be called unfair by Null Space?

Yeah. Funny how the Trigs didn’t want any of null space.

[LowKey_Chandler]

@Dantelion_Shinoni

Big problem with it was that EDENCOM got shafted and it is possible that all their efforts were in vain (the invasion would likely have continued until the number of systems needed was reached…)

THAT is what sucked, yes. They could fix it if some fake lore “Scientist” figured out what it would take to unlock the crystal encrusted gates. Not that it should be easy, but doable. Content.

[Rail_J_kar]

@LowKey_Chandler

@Dantelion_Shinoni

that could be called unfair by Null Space?

Yeah. Funny how the Trigs didn’t want any of null space.

The empires don’t want it either.

@LowKey_Chandler

They could fix it if some fake lore “Scientist” figured out what it would take to unlock the crystal encrusted gates. Not that it should be easy, but doable. Content.

There’s no reason why it couldn’t be undone… and then have the trigs take other systems if they’re able to.

@Dantelion_Shinoni

However, for whom are this change exactly?

Fw has been stale for a long time, adding some dynamism to the mix would be a good thing.

[Aidan_Pollard]

I heard or read one dev saying that they learned a lot from Pochven. I think some sort of no-losers design could work better in FW space. I don’t mean no loss of ships–we want ships blowing up all over the place. I mean that they need to avoid over-scripting. Let us make the story, and if you try to defend and lose, you still get some decent rewards; the winning side simply gets way more.

[Verlyn]

Huh…

Interesting concept, I would welcome a crusade type Spill-over into static HS amarr systems any day.

[ResonanceOfWar]

@Dantelion_Shinoni

Big problem with it was that EDENCOM got shafted and it is possible that all their efforts were in vain (the invasion would likely have continued until the number of systems needed was reached…)

I would love for Edencom to develop tech to reopen the gates and start stealing control over some of the poch closed loop system’s and opening it up and reconnecting parts of it to empire space.

If you think about it logically the triglav’s always talk about the struggle and what they do is develop a closed loop to live in.

In a way they could have saved empire from the drifter invasion in the same way that you can knot a hose pipe. If you knot it somewhere it cant pour out at the end (empire high sec) and instead bursts at a weak point (null sec). So maybe Edencom in their greed and vanity try reopen those star gates to reclaim lost systems without realizing that they are creating an opening for the drifters to exploit.

Gandalf’s voice “You fools!”

[ResonanceOfWar]

Current FW has 1 massive weakness to the entire concept and that is that it has no influence over the rest of the game. “Spill-over effect” as you say.
Why not use history to spice it up a bit:

If a civ conquered another civ they get taken as slaves the side that wins becomes an economic power house while the side that has lost suffer’s greatly.

Since it is a game we can shift the ratio’s a lil so that the winning side has an easier way of life while the defeated suffer a little.

If 1 faction is winning the war and gain more territory they start asserting their dominance and gain some economical advantage.

for an example Let’s look at Amarr vs Minmatar:
Amarr push hard and gain 80% of the low sec fw system’s, Minmatar have less reinforcement’s and hence less resources so system buffs can start dropping and getting lower. Amarr gaining more land can take the citizen’s of those planet’s once owned by minmatar as slaves, this could be represented in game as tax’s.

Amarr sales tax gets 1% lower for each 20% system’s controlled and Minmatar get +1% sales tax for every 20% of system’s lost, and this effect’s all their systems not just low sec.

Now this starts to effect high sec, the high seccor’s will start to realize if they do not contribute to the war effort they will get shafted in the long run and so they might start selling ship’s and module’s closer to the war zone to help aid the war effort they might join fw them selves and fight.

This might be a way to stop Jita from being a permanent power house trade hub, the Gallentean’s could just say stuff that hold 100% of the warzone and Jita’s sales tax goes from 5% to 10%, making Dodixie Ren’s and Hek more attractive.

And Since Faction standing’s are a big deal and hard to change this makes people fight harder instead of just swapping sides.

@tutucox_Khamsi Wouldn’t you like to really turn the Mini into your slaves Although they would be able to do the same to Amarr.

[Posh_Wynoa_Spice]

The main issue with that idea is how open to abuse it is, as well as ignoring the reality of what would first happen.

Keep in mind that Calmil is 70% and Galmil is 30%, and Amarmil is closer to 80% with minmil at 20%.

Amarr and Caldari, due to the nature of how they are more or less allied with each other, will own the trade hubs, and push Jita and Amarr further to trade dominance.

Here’s a better idea:
Sales taxes in high sec and null sec need to get raised 10% (before skills applied) and the only way to get them back to the current level in high sec is through FW loyalty stuff that requires weekly effort – your prowess in helping the empire you fight for gives rewards, and it needs to be done continually to stay in those good graces.
Also, lowsec sales tax would be the same as current high sec – an option for those who do not wish to align to a specific faction and grind significant negative status with the others.

This would make trade in lowsec a lot more lucrative… either pay the price for the safety of high/null sec, or take some risk for more lucrative gains from the sales of the same stuff!

[tutucox_Khamsi]

in the current year i prefer to say the amarr are minmatar life coaches