So 2 characters on day one.
Character A, has 50 million sp
Character B, has less than 1 million sp
Character A doesn’t have an advantage due to real life money?
It’s Pay-to-win, character B might not have the real life money to spend so will always be at a disadvantage.
However without such a system the disadvantage is with the person that can’t play much due to real life commitments.
In essence MMO’s by their very nature are never fair.
If you just arbitrarily alter the meaning of the term so it doesn’t fit anymore then, well, it will not apply to EVE anymore yes. But we are talking here about the term pay-to-win as it is generally defined, something like this:
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. ( Free-to-play - Wikipedia )
There used to be a time where you only had the stuff in a game that you yourself worked/played for, you could not insert your credit card into the space invaders arcade and gain 10’000 additional points for 5$. If you can purchase any amount of game assets that a non-paying player has to invest time for then it is by definition pay-to-win.
And I realize that the sandbox has a chilling effect on the usefulness of boosting your wallet as there are just too many variables to have a big effect overall. But it is there nonetheless and I for one would rather have a game that is actually a pure game where gameplay matters and not where you can shortcut everything with your credit card.
Because you know, if we don’t push back here then it will just go on and on and more and more such things will be added as they already do. There is no gain in defending this practices. If you like EVE and if you like CCP then speak against it and don’t let them turn this game into a storefront.
Theres always niche games
OH WAIT
They want to remove the option for any deviation from press button, receive bacon.
Following on from my last post, there is another way of looking at it.
All MMO’s are fair even P2W as all players are held to the same rules, it’s real life that’s not fair.
Pay to win? i always tought that in order to “win” Eve you had to not play… It takes a special kind of guy to pay to not play…
It occurs to me to wonder - how do you ‘win’ Eve ?
@Dravick_Afterthought if I were to say “you are full of ■■■■”, you realize such a statement has absolutely nothing to do with the % of max capacity poop in your digestive tract… right?
These threads are always amusing to some extent. Deniers perform ballets of mental gymnastics to convince themselves (much more so than “us”) that their beloved game doesn’t have P2W elements. Most common is definitional restriction, but when this fails we usually see insignificant anecdotes and completely irrelevant arguments like “EVE is complicated” or “but player skill?!”.
The denial of reality here is obvious, so what I really wonder about is the motivation. Did mommy tell you that you can’t play games with P2W elements? Do you love EVE, but P2W is against your moral code as a video game consumer? Are you poor IRL and don’t like the idea that people with more disposable income can have an advantage over you in the game?
It’s a serious question - how do you ‘win’ Eve, when it has no ‘final Boss’ to defeat ?
And as for ‘Motivation’ - I have no objection, I just disagree with some people’s definition. Shai 'Hulud, why are you such an asshole about a perfectly reasonable question ?
They are still selling the “starter pack” that comes with a 40% damage booster lasting over a month.
If that isn’t pay to win i don’t know how to define it…
It’s not a serious question. You are trying to obfuscate the clear fact that advantage can be gained in this game by spending more $, by reading too much into the word “win”. A pathetic attempt, really. MMOs in general are designed to have no true “win” condition (not something unique to the sandbox of EVE). If this prevents proper assignment of the label P2W, then even “golden ammo” wouldn’t make EVE P2W.
@Karak_Terrel already called you out on trying to deform the definition of P2W such that it doesn’t fit EVE… you are still doing the same thing just from a different angle. Quit being such a tool.
Then the term ‘Pay to win’ simply doesn’t apply to Eve (or other MMO’s according to you) and therefore should not be used. Why are you taking it so personally ?
eta: Now I understand… https://xkcd.com/386/
I’m done with you.
Can you use RL $$$ to improve your character level-wise immediately, opening up more items for use and increasing skills related to said items?
YES 
Pay-To-Win
NO Not Pay-To-Win
Case closed.
No, “b…bu…but you still have to have the skill to know what you’re doing… dddeeerrrrrrrrrrp” does not magically take away the P2W status.
No it isn’t - all you’ve shown is that you can 'Pay to win quicker’. If that’s what is meant, that’s what it should be called.
Get it the right way round - what i said was that you can get the skills require to do anything in Eve without paying anything but your Omega sub - i.e. Pay to win quicker.
There is no winning an MMO, as there’s no finite end game.
Lets look at trading as it’s an easy one to assess.
Player A been in-game for years and has the trading skills to max. and has plenty of isk behind him/her.
Player B, been in-game 2 days has max, trading skills and plenty of isk behind him/her, due to buying PLEX with real cash and selling on the in-game market.
Player C, also been in-game 2 days has few trading skills learnt has very little isk.
Now Player B can complete with Player A as long as he/she doesn’t mind playing the 0.01 isk mini-game and has plenty of time to spend on the game. However Player C is unable to compete as they won’t have the isk or sufficient trading skills.
Can Player B best Player A, it’s possible although it will still be difficult as the established main hub trader will defend their patch even to the point they’re prepared to lose some isk if it has a chance of putting you off. As for Player C they can still pick up some good deals if they’re lucky and prepared to play the 0.01 isk mini-game.
So in the case of Player B, I see it as a form of P2W, but then so is multiple accounts and I can’t think of an MMO that only allows 1 account. In fact from a PvP aspect probably the multiple accounts is worse.
Best bet is not to worry about P2W because if the P2W shiny ship (shiny ship not in-game but how some people see P2W) comes up against multiple accounts it’s likely to be toast.
No one undocks their at ship without links and backup
Lol I remember this, thanks for retelling the story.
Player 1 vs Player 2!
Player 1 (pro gamer)
he spents all his ingame money on a battlecruiser!
Player 2 (not so good at playing games but freakin rich in real life)
he spents all his ingame money on a battlecruiser!
lets say player 1 destroys the battlecruiser of player 2!
player 2 gets mad, gets out his credit card and start buying titan after titan until player 1 gives up and quits the game!
sounds like p2w to me!
but in my opinion, any item u can buy in a game with rl money, were other people have to do alot of grindin for to get it or alot of quests, raids, teamplay or other ingame activities etc. makes it in my eyes p2w!!
MAKING UR CREDIT CARD PART OF THE GAME IS P2W!!!
im ok with buying decorations/extra colors or other minor stuff that doesnt have any effect on the gameplay itself! but buying the best items/ships with rl money makes it p2w!
u dont need to have alot of skill, knowledge of the game or a strong guild/corp/group of friends anymore to get the best stuff! u just need a credit card!
p2w 
the early days of star wars galaxies! also u had only 1 char per account!
after the devs killed crafting and fuckd up the whole game they changed that but 1-2years later the game died anyways lol
edit:
in the early days there was a way that u could have 2 chars per account by unlocking the jedi slot but this slot/the jedi char had permadeath and u could lose it forever by gettin killed 3 times in one week! also noone did know how to unlock it but the secret was to master like 6-8 random professions(every account had diffrent proffessions to master) and also u had to visit special places in the world, after all this u would unlock it. it was alooot of work^^
You cant use a Titan outside of specific situations.