Please don’t, he already has a big enough ego.
Haven’t seen any, Lucas, except some stuff you defined as being “objective”, which the rest of us responders refute as being unobjective or simply wrong according to a generally accepted definition. The first part of a debate is always to set definitions that all parties can agree upon, to overcome language barriers and preconceptions on the meaning of words. If you ever are at that point, we can continue the exchange. You making certain comments about me without really knowing anything (and refusing to verify) doesn’t hurt, I want that to be clear. There is no bad feeling, even better, despite the many negative exchanges we have had over the years, you’re welcome to any fleet I run - provided you don’t awox of course. I still believe that there is an EvE pilot waiting to come out of Lucas Kell.
o7
I spent almost the entire last week mapping connections (and getting blown up by Tyrannos battleships, lol). So I don’t envy you for your duty 
1 Like
Not even for glorious balls of fire ? So sad.
okay then
2 Likes
Yes, “obsessed” with you, as you say 
Have to say, you’re a very important man.
Sour patch.
Then I guess we will agree to disagree I hope I stated my views in a clear manner for everyone to read here. I take a stricter definition to pay-to-win.
I generalize that EVE is not a 1v1 game. Fights are usually in groups and simply ISK and SP does not prevail in the end. If we keep these in mind people with less ISK and SP can fight above their weight. Keeping with my definition of absolute advantage. We can dive into scenarios forever in this discussion.
I actually qouted what @Gerard_Amatin said in my last post.
He hits it right on the nail PTW encourages others to also buy in to make the playing level even. I would need to buy the same hearthstone card to have a remote chance of beating the player. If I don’t that guy has an absolute advantage over me and no matter how skilled I get I can’t beat that one card that costs $$$. Everyone needs to buy in to have a semblance at a fair game the devs will keep moving the goal posts to generate more money and so on and so on. It’s an endless rat race when you are playing a real hardcore PTW game.
3 Likes
And this is why you don’t argue with some people, not beyond 2-3 posts anyway. Holy fck this thread.
3 Likes
You’re right. I usually let it go after a few posts but I guess I was having too much fun.
This is by far the biggest salt lake I have ever seen.
It’s amazing how much washed up here.
2 Likes
A couple of members and I tried to stem the flood of tears but as you can see we were unsuccessful.
1 Like
I stopped visiting the forums for a day and a bit and it was +150 messages in here lol…
What a difference a day makes 
Just like how people can have different interpretations and nuances of P2W, people can have different goals in discussions.
I went into this discussion to share that people can have different views and to learn about your views.
I was not sure what your goal in the discussion was, but your last post suggests that you saw the discussion as some kind of competition.
I learned of the difference between our views and understand your viewpoint, even though I hold a different view.
You do not show signs of understanding my viewpoint, but you have let us know that you have ‘won’ the discussion:
Seems like we both positively gained something from this discussion. Me, a better understanding of other viewpoints; you, the feeling that one has when they are convinced they have won.
Congratulations!
1 Like
Do you need help to get off the horse again?
Thank you for that, Gerard. That is a wholesome way to view and engage in a discussion on a forum.
Food for thought.
Thx
My goal is to name things their right name.
From the beginning my statement that EVE is pay to win game was taken by you and other anti-pay2win posters as an direct attack to your personal integrity. As such it is clear why you refuse generally accepted definition of pay to win and have need to replace it with your version that excludes EVE.
I never claimed that pay to win games are bad, ■■■■, unbalanced and whatever,. nor that EVE specifically is. EVE is actually a good example that not all pay to win games are inherently unbalanced and that they can still be fun.
From the beginning the main reason you are fighting so hard against EVE being pay to win is that you do dislike or even hate pay to win games and you would never play such game. Yet you are playing EVE Online which is pay to win game and deep down you know it so you need to twist the generally accepted definition to justify you playing EVE Online so that your stance on pay to win games isn’t compromised.
You are slowly shifting that definition to make sure EVE isn’t pay to win and no matter what CCP sells to player you keep shifting that definition of yours to make sure EVE isn’t included in it so you can keep playing it. All because you are not being honest with yourself.
As I wrote before, if you go to the reddit or forum (if they have it) of game you yourself consider to be pay to win and claim there that this game is pay to win, you get exactly the same shitstorm that I and @Lucas_Kell are getting from you guys exactly from the same reason. There will always be dishonest players who would never play pay to win game, yet they play one and so when that reality is brought into their faces they need to justify why they play it somehow. So they will come with even more narrow definition of pay to win that excludes their game. And we can do that over and over till no game on market would fall under pay to win.
The definition of pay to win is given. Your inability to accept it is the clear proof that this whole discussion is emotion driven from your side and as such your opinion can never be changed in lights of proofs whatsoever. And now when I realize that I see no point of repeating what was already said dozen of times only to get same excuses you all are using to counter it from the start. Which is why I, or “my side” won the argument. Well there was never any argument from the beginning when the pay to win definition is given but w/e.
2 Likes
I’m not sure the debate on “P2W or not” is still a meaningful discussion here or if it’s just devolved to folks narrowing down their definitions to the point where EVE becomes what they prefer it to be and other games “aren’t”.
However,
Now let’s say CCP decides to implement a new ammo type, TruGold Ammo, that does 25% more damage at 20% greater optimal. And this ammo is only available for purchase on the website for RL cash?
Apparently neither Wadiest nor Anthony would describe this as “P2W” because it’s only an advantage in some situations and not a clear, certain “I win” button. And player skill would still trump better ammo.
And Gerard would only consider it P2W if it was microtransactions. But, if, for instance, every Omega sub included 100,000 TruGold ammo per month, then it wouldn’t be P2W. Because it’s not microtransactions and you could still “compete” without it.
So based on the view that premium ammo isn’t P2W, I suspect it’s only a matter of time before CCP implements it.
4 Likes
EVE is pay to win. Don’t do the “but a newbie with 100 mil SP will lose to a vet with 5 mil sp” because that’s just a carefully created fallacy specifically designed to try and hide the truth. Using that and hoping to get away with it is actually an insult. Stop pretending.
If you buy more SP you will be faster, your will have more EHP, your weapons do more dps, you will have more range, damage application. Once you maxed out those skills you will have more ship options. Same with industry: you will reprocess better, you’ll have lower taxes and costs, you can mine more, haul more, produce more, research more, invent more.
Back then you could only buy SP by buying a character, then you could buy SP by using injectors and recently you can start buying SP straight from the shop. There’s literally no difference, one can go “yeah but there’s some differ”… it doesn’t matter, the end result is the same.
Is is a problem though? Ideally it shouldn’t exist, realistically it does and needs to both from a company income pov and because players these days simply accept and demand it. It’s here, it’s not really a problem at all because more people will stick around because of it than will quit or stay away because of it.
4 Likes
I view Eve as “Pay to Play”. You either are an Alpha who has a limited play style for $0, or you start pumping cash to be able to do more and more things in the game.
And hopefully as they dump more money into the game they succeed at more things too, but I wouldn’t count on it, people with a lot of money aren’t necessarily the ones with a lot of sense. Especially if their choice is to dump more money into Eve.
The whole distinction of “pay to win” or not is, to me, tilting at windmills: I really believe it is a meaningless waste of mental energy.
2 Likes