YES it was ! You compare the outcome of a single choice, and your choice is to use 1 gecko or 2 wasps, since the DPS is linear it’s the same as comparing 1 wasps and 0.5 geckos, or 5 wasps and 2.5 geckos !
Yes they are.
No, I used the numbers of the BS. Because that’s where the HPs are…
NO ! Your gecko is 25% less DPS than 2 wasps. Your full load of geckos is ALSO 25% less DPS than a full load of wasps. Because 2 wasps do twice the DPS of a single one …
NO ! That’s not how it works ! if you have 90% hit chance against frig, then doubling your tracking only means you get 95% chance to hit ! That’s only 5.5% DPS increase for double the tracking, and you don’t get double the tracking with geckos !
With a +32% tracking, you go from 90% hit chance to 0.92. You gain <3% DPS against frigs !
xD sure … compare an ishtar with dron load X vs an isthar about drone load Y … and it doesnt make sense … dude you need to lern about logic !
you never use only 1 gecko oO how hard is this to understand ! OP is asking for a drone loadout of an ishtar with 125 m³ bandwith ! and not if he should fly with a single gecko or single wasp … dude your ridiculus !
no, not that much
wtf has HP of a ship to do with DPS ? oO
you need a resist profile do calculate your DPS but not HP ! JP say only how many shots you need to kill it but not about your DPS ! → you did again a logical mistake
how i compare a set of heavy drones to 0,005 gecko… because this would make it way clearer that a gecko does not have the same paper DPS as a wasp II what i never denied … and compare 2 wasp vs 1 gecko does not have 25 % difference … was about 17% as my excample shows !
and you think wasps has 90% hit chance ! this is your fault … proof they have 90% hit chance ! otherwise your just take your own numbers as they result like you want to result them !
btw …
so tell me it was always about only 2 geckos dude you try to complaining about things we both said the op shouldnt do !
you just need to be right but you arent right … you use your own ways to show that other ppl are wrong but your own ways are not the ways we are going for !
btw ,… i dont wanna teach you more ! have fun to think your correct and do what you want … but if you dont uses all facts to calculate things then you will never be correct ! and paper DPS alone is just stupid …
EDIT:
still the DPS of pyfa said only its 13 % dps difference between 2 gecko 1 wasp vs 5 wasp … and he gap of this 13 % got closed by better tracking and better velocity
YES because you use that to prove using a gecko is not a 25% loss of DPS.
Which is plain wrong.
But when you COMPARE you need to have COMPARABLE things.
So when you CHOOSE to replace 2 wasps with 1 gecko, you lose 25% DPS for this choice.
When you choose to replace 1 wasp with 0.5 gecko, it’s exactly the same.
enough to result in -25%
Because it tells you which profile to choose. READ.
You choose a profile based on the HP of the target.
If the frigs are 10% of the HP then it’s stupid to use their profile while BS are 80%.
No, your example was bad because you use frigate profile, which makes no sense .
I said using gecko is bad, and I explain why.
Maybe you should actually read what I wrote, not what you wanted to imagine :
I am saying that geckos are worse than wasps. You answered this specific case, so you should try to understand it BEFORE you answer it. Don’t then pretend I was talking about another topic … that’s plain dishonest.
Yes because your comparison makes no sense.
You consider bad numbers and then you pretend they make sense. They don’t. Your comparison is bad.
Compare 2 wasps with one gecko, vs BS profile. And you will have -25% DPS with the gecko, or -27% if you pick the second BS profile.
full loadout ! everything else does not make sense ! you dont run a ship with 125 m³ bandwith only with 100 m³ bandwith used … ! but you dond understand anything
like a full loadout of drones ?
i cant use 0,5 gecko so thats uncompareble …
RESISTS ARE NOT THE SAME AS HP !!! !lern the ■■■■■■■ mechanics before you try to speak
you have read first dude … i never talked about only geckos ! and you divided a gecko by 2 that makes no sense at all !
1 gecko is way better then 1 wasp … if you wanna compare ! but you only compare as you like so the result is as you wish
i choose dps of a gurista damage profile of 5 wasp against a gurista damage profile of 2 gecko vs 1 wasp and the result is 13% less dmg but way better tracking and velocity !
you just startet to compare 2,5 gecko vs 5 wasp which does not make sense cause you cant use 2,5 geckos and since the op has startet the thread it was always about the 125 m³ bandwith and not only about 2 geckos ! but you cant understand …
both setups have exactly the same theoretical raw damage on the average Gurista target
the ‘Wasp’ setup is a lot more resistant against drone-aggro (effective shield recharge), this can lead to more effective damage if they need to be recalled less often than a Gecko setup
the ‘Wasp’ setup is a lot cheaper (10.9M vs. 340M), which means an ‘upgrade’ to Geckos will take some time to even pay off, how much exactly depends on the effective increase in killspeed
the ‘Gecko’ setup has lower drone travel times (all drones are faster) → more damage delivered
the ‘Gecko’ setup has superior tracking, especially against small targets → more damage delivered
Recommendations:
Test both setups in real scenarios and make notes about the run times from warpin to last kill. Only then can you see if the Gecko setup really increases your runspeed (and by how much), to make a decision if the increased costs are a good investment.
Alternatives to test as well:
5x Wasp II: → 478 effective dps, same speed as NavyWasp, less tracking, less tank
5x ‘Augmented’ Wasp: → 508 effective dps, higher speed as NavyWasp, less tracking, a slightly less tank
Honestly, the cost alone for gekos makes them unoptimal vs just augmented or t2s. It seems they perform nearly all the same from what I see. Gut feeling here but I think a person won’t experience amazingly higher run times with gekos. Given external environment considerations like if they need to go AFK or they DC or if the geko dies before it pays off.
It appears we also assume people won’t be bothered by hunters.
No, they actually perform worse.
The resist profile he uses are an average of the entities and are wrong when you fight BS since BS have higher resists than the other and also higher HP.
The correct resist profile to use is the BS profile.
Geckos are only better in PVP or when fighting omni tanked ennemies. Against specific resist profiles like guristas, there is always a better choice. And cheaper.
nothing else i said on my first response in this thread !
the cheaper way are in most cases the best way only because its the cheaper way ( if the performance are nearly the same )
I think we can come to a mutual agreement here. Between all of us.
This MMO has been around for 20 years now guys. People way before us have min/maxed everything and cracked pretty much every PVE thing to do in this game. People use gekos… Unoptimally and in niche cases like @stefnia_Freir mentions in reply post 30.
@Vuhdo_Rin agrees that gekos are way too expensive to really make them viable. In post 31
I am no hostage negotiator but there seem to be things we can both agree on.
By all means if you wanna use gekos and probably lose your investment when someone hunts you down by all means go for it. Who cares about 300mil when a person’s networth is in the billions or trillions? Right?
Me personally? Ill stick to faction, t2, or augmented. Now everyone can get their last words in and we can be at peace.
The OP didn’t say anything about fighting only BS, at least I haven’t found any such statements. He said he is ‘ratting Guristas’, which can mean all type of content, from Anomalies over Beltrats to FOBs, Missions whatever. I had used the resists of a specific battleship if he asked what the best drone combo would be to fight explicitly this battleship. But he hasn’t. So the right answer is to use the average Guristas profile as resists to fight against. If he wants to get a more specific answer, he needs to ask a more specific question.
I do agree tho that I woudn’t recommend using Geckos at all. Even in cases where they would perform better (lots of smaller ships in the Anos) the difference will not be that great and probably not worth their costs.
I personally would use a Combo of NavyWasps and T2 Wasps in the DroneBay and launch T2 against the Battleships, Navys against anything below BC. It’s cheap, it’s reliable and performs probably best in most scenarios against Guristas.
its up to the @op and i think he did his choise ! he got a lot of good and proofed informations in this thread and now your right … need to be endet at this point ! we just go around in circles ( if this makes sense in english … )
It’s not about “only” fighting BS. The moment you have BS, they are the main source of EHPs.
So it’s nonsensical to take the average of the resists without considering the part of EHP they provide.
You are correct that he may be doing hideaways in an ishtar. But if that’s the case, I believe a gila would be way better. Or even, using only light drones on the ishtar.
Also, there is no hideways in geminate. The ishtar is used there to rat anoms, and the best anoms are those with a lot of BS, typically why I had made those numbers (because I wanted to know what was the best drones to use with an ishtar…)
Typically this kind of fit : Ishtar | Yazara Feldron | Killmail | zKillboard
(even though I don’t get why he does not use a propmod)
I disagree with you, therefore it is not a fact but only the opinion you promote.
Calling your opinion “fact” is delusional and dishonest. Its assumes you can’t be wrong. You can. Therefore you are.
My $0.02:
If you’re ratting, use the drones that shoot into the resist hole of whatever you’re farming. Caldari drones vs Gurista rats for example.
If you’re using tinker’sneks for wormhole krabbing, then Geckos are generally better. Swap to Ogres and Praetors for killing a Drifter to take advantage of the Drifter resist holes.
PvP is another matter. I use Geckos in my Sin’s main dps loadout. I’ve flown Leshak doctrines that call for Geckos.
For pretty much all other pvp, I just stick to regular t2 heavies.
The cost of Geckos is rather absurd for their advantages.
I appreciate all the info, it was really great. I’ve traditionally ratted with the wasp 2 or wasp faction. I did recently try the combo with geckos, vespa and hornet. what I found is just a little slower BS kills and drones divided targets very often, but on the escalations with a lot of annoying frigs/cruisers that normally would threaten drone death that instead it was a lot easier. so it seems like the wasps should be used for most general ratting, the geckos might enhance the escalations. although I will say that in situations where I lose or almost lose Wasp, the Gecko survives fairly easily due to having more hp.
From all the data you guys have given me, it seems it’s nearly the same experience with the geckos probably being a tiny bit worse due to faction resistances on BS. but it did get me thinking about about drone speed/tracking ETC
I think I will use geckos in my Stratios, what do you think?
dude you try to complaining about things we both said the op shouldnt do !
Between all of us.