How to unbork FW megathread

(Gian Bal) #41

Whilst I like the tristans idea there would have to be certain things tweaked.

Entosis link doesnt really work because it would pretty much make ships with no utility high for it somewhat useless in a pvp scenario, that and quite alot of frigs etc. used in FW that have utility highs usually need them for nos’s etc. I would propose that instead, all ships in the game receive a sort of slot that can only fit a special faction warfare entosis link that would require bare minimum fitting (1pg, 1cpu). This would mean most fits are still viable.

Also whilst excluding alpha’s from being able to plex etc. may seem bad, it is actually a good way to get true alpha characters into groups of omega players so while they’re plexing with omega toons, they’re also learning the game etc. and would be more likely to want to sub so they can start plexing on their own. Making it this way actually encourages newer players to seek out corps and learn the game.

But overall I really wanna get the npc out of the way just like tristan, with all the new sov changes etc. and everything needing to be entosis linked why shouldn’t it apply to faction warfare? It would make a hell of a lot more sense lore wise because why would killing a few rats on a beacon capture the beacon as opposed to actually running it with an entosis link. Each entosis link cycle is 5 minutes long so it scales well for plex timers too:
Novice - 2 Cycles (10mins)
Small - 3 Cycles (15mins)
Medium - 4 Cycles (20mins)
Large - 5 Cycles (25mins)

Also this has been bought up so many times but it really does need to be done, the bigger the plex, the more the contested rate of the system should go up. For those not in FW every plex will make the systems contest rate go up by 0.7%. So doing 10minutes in a novice will get you the same as 25mins in a large. This needs to be changed so you can get more contest done quicker. I think that overall the contest amount from plex’s need to be higher because it takes way too long to plex up a system and deplex a system imo.

I propose these contest amounts (Feel free to add what you think of them):
Novice - 0.6%
Small - 1.2%
Medium - 1.8%
Large - 2.4%

This would actually make doing the larger plex’s worthwhile instead of going in the same order of Novice > Small > Medium > Large

Also I recommend making pirate faction frigs only able to go into small plex’s and above. Sure they’re technically t1 frigates however their strength is on par with ships that can enter small plex’s, the majority of pirate faction frigates can decimate their T1 counterparts and I think it would make novice plex’s a bit more noobie friendly and would encourage more good fights (This doesn’t include navy faction frigates).

I just hope that we can get CCPs attention and actually get them to do stuff about FW, currently there aren’t any dedicated FW players on the CSM and any of the changes proposed by the CSM make it clear that they don’t have a clue about living in FW. Maybe next CSM election we could push for a dedicated FW CSM candidate #Gian4CSM #MakeFactionWarfareGreatAgain

(Tristan daCuhna) #42

My main gripe with Alpha Clones and FW is that of reward vs investment. FW can provide a fantastic source of income. A mechanic which grants access to that income for absolutely no investment what so ever is utter bull and in my opinion is one of the leading factors in the current influx of botting within FW.

(DrButterfly PHD) #43

Maybe there’s a way to balance the reward. I agree that especially when flying fleet, smaller ships can actually get more rewards. I got loads of loot flying alpha rifter in fleets when dipping my toes back into eve. Less so now that im flying bigger stuff or logi.

(Shallanna Yassavi) #44

If you’re worried about bots, I’d rather make it harder to bot. Longer trains or grinds do not stop bots nearly as effectively as they frustrate humans. If it’s too easy to bot, it’s missing a mechanic. Like…

Solo plexes would run about the way they already do, but nerfed payouts.

“Bigger” plexes would have the attackers hacking something, with a neutral node being lowsec-hard to hack and a hostile one being nullsec-hard. Whoever was running it would have to defend the hackers as they worked. Or they could write another minigame which doesn’t require a module to play do.

(DrButterfly PHD) #45

I like this idea to frustrate bots. Could be something really simple when you arrive at the site. Could even be tied to project discovery.

(Daemun Khanid) #46

Yea cause playing a mini game while spamming dscan and trying to take fights sounds like a good idea. :-1: As I said before we do NOT need more stupid mechanics. We need the fundamental issues addressed. The isk faucet and farmability.

(DrButterfly PHD) #47

You’d do it after the fight, and yes you’d do it while spamming dscan.

(Arcturus Ursidae) #48

In some ways all the ideas here are the right answer, any change at all is likely to increase participation especially alongside a bit of T1 ship balancing too shake things up. Even bad change may be good right now.

(Mo Skor) #49

All this talk of what ails FW is bumming me out, knowing what it could become, while honestly, many of these comments I can’t even understand. I’m trying.

First off, I carry a lot of inventory in Huola, so was forced to leave FW so I could continue managing my inventory. Second, I hate having to give LPs to iHubs.

Ideas I’m pulling for:

LP payout is based on your rank in your militia, not tiers. Hang around and accomplish stuff for your militia, and it will pay off. Switch sides, and you start from zero rank in your new militia, and your old rank resets to zero too.

Each militia would have a secure system, Houla for Amarr, etc. No need for plexes. Enemies enter just to find fights. The supporting empire has provided state-of-the-art protection against other militias at gates and stations. High probability of gate camps right outside each secure system… Anomalies within secure systems could be worm-holes to random FW systems.

No security loss for fighting neutrals in FW space. This is a war zone, and we can’t be responsible for differentiating neutrals from militia opponents. You could apply this just to plexes, but it can be argued that neutrals in FW space are looking for a fight by simply being in FW space, so it should apply to all FW space.

If the plex hasn’t been completed, it should start counting back to neutral after 5 minutes. This requires commitment to complete, and matches standard protocol in many ‘capture the flag’ games.

(this is my alt, does that matter here? lol)

(Nikolai Agnon) #50

Tristan said megathread, so here, have a Nikolai-stamped megapost:

Changes to FW

My ideas on how to improve the base mechanics of FW while keeping the theme intact:

  • Introduce System Indexes based on Ihub level, duration of ownership, and by-count system ownership in the constellation.

  • Shorten deplex timers for systems with higher System Indexes, to a peak rate of 40% faster deplexing (Novices would take 6 minutes in a completely fortified system).

  • Reduce each system’s overall VP from ~3000 to a flat 2000, to balance the shorter deplex timers with needing fewer oplexes to flip undefended systems, and to make individual plex captures feel more meaningful.

  • Change the deplex LP formula from [plexValue * contestation * 75%] to [plexValue * ceiling(10%, contestation)] for contested systems. Deplexing systems at 90% shouldn’t be penalized by a further 25% reduction in payout, while players should receive more than 10 LP for helping re-stabilize a 1% system.

  • Delete the tier system entirely. Plexing in tier 1 is beyond painful for any militia, and the current system heavily encourages the semi-afk, often-stabbed farming on alts that give FW such a nasty reputation.

  • Ships with warp core strength >1 (ventures, and anything with a WCS fitted) should be incapable of capturing plexes

“Rabbit-plexing” is fine, but should only really be effective while defending. Faster deplex progress would help mitigate offensive rabbits, but forcing a plexer to stay and fight no matter is less than ideal.

Changing the deplexing payout as suggested will help give comparable payouts for deplexing highly-contested systems, hopefully making them appealing to solo pilots. It would also make home stabilization less painful, because getting 10 LP for 10 minutes is just silly.

Removing the tier system won’t singlehandedly stop farmers, but at least they’d be more evenly spread, instead of all dog-piling on whichever side owns the most systems.

Player Incentives

Why should players stick with an empire other than for an introduction to PVP? There are very few incentives for allying with an empire over time, versus the plethora of penalties. Let’s brainstorm some ideas.

  • Empire skins for currently-enlisted militia pilots, unlocked based on militia rank

  • +10% multiplier for LP gains for missions from all corporations under the empire

    • Gives rewarding options to hisec corps that wish to dabble in PVP
    • Fun by-product: hisec-only mission runners might join FW, leading to more hisec PVP
  • Security reimbursement for shooting neutral ships and structures in warzone systems

    • Pod kills still weigh full security penalty (no reimbursements)
    • Does not prevent gate/station guns from firing
    • Encourages hisec/lowsec hybrid gameplay
    • Helps offset a PVP player’s sacrifice of having fewer targets (since pirates can shoot either side, but lose easy hisec access in the process)
    • Makes sense in-universe, because these engagements happen in a bloody warzone. Shoot first, sort paperwork later.
    • Should be fairly easy to implement - if instant reimbursements would be difficult behind the scenes, they could happen over downtime


You know how sov-null has structural mechanics favoring the sov holders, compared to NPC-null where everybody gets the shaft? Lowsec should be the same way. Give structures a Militia-Exclusive option that locks out neutrals and enemies in addition to other filters (so a FW alliance can still limit access to just itself, but can’t allow “neutral” friends to benefit). Then, tie in benefits for Militia-Exclusive structures:

  • Smaller vulnerability windows^

  • Reduced fuel costs^ (such as -1 fuel block per module per cycle per ihub level)

  • An intelligence module that sends in-game (and API) notifications whenever enemies plex in that system

  • Access to the LP store^

  • Reduced-cost Asset Safety (though lockout duration stays the same)

  • Access to an empire-specific structure skin

^based on i-hub level, and only in warzone systems

This allows, even encourages players to set up Militia-wide citadels outright.

Also, this seriously needs to happen: ban docking in non-Militia structures in hostile territory. If you want an enemy-territory staging citadel, it’d better be Militia-Exclusive, and it should have vulnerability window penalties. None of this business with “neutral citadels” being dockable by oplexers. Forward operating bases can be major strategic assets, but they should be very specific in use.

Corporation / group content

  • FW-oriented corp income. A few ideas:

    • LP taxing, just like ISK taxing
    • Bonuses for cooperative plexing (when two or more corpmates capture one plex, the corp gets 20% of the total plex value as a bonus)
    • Direct isk injections for corpmate efforts (ignore LP entirely: each d-plex pays the corp wallet 100k, each o-plex pays 250k; void if multiple corps complete the plex; no double-dipping)
  • Corp-wide home systems (thematically similar to nullsec capital systems)

    • Changeable with a 7 day timer
    • Must be a warzone system currently owned by the corp’s militia
    • I-hub LP donations receive a +20% multiplier
    • When enemies capture plexes in the home system, all online corp members receive a notification (but no names, ship types, or numbers)
    • When enemies destabilize the system (from 0%), a slightly different notification is sent, which does include the names of involved pilots
    • Similar to the upcoming Mining Ledger mechanic, have a Defense Ledger for corpmates who d-plex (visible to directors; resets when the home system changes; only counts the corp’s members, not the whole militia)
    • If the home system is lost, the corp must still wait out any outstanding timer, and receives none of the home system benefits until a new system is designated
    • Home system is visible for corp members, but not publicly viewable to everyone
  • DED-like escalations from warzone systems into hostile hisec, with access granted exclusively to “military personnel” (FW participants from any militia)

    • Sites should be difficult and/or risky to solo run
    • New venue to showcase the “new NPC AI” that require fleet efforts to fight against
    • Systemwide beacon appears upon warp-in, but, again, only militiamen can enter
    • Significant reward if completed by the system owner’s opposing faction; no reward at all (other than the PVP and resulting loot) if the owning faction’s militia successfully interferes

There are so many options available, should CCP decide it’s worth looking into.

(Sam Knob) #51

Of all the bad suggestions I’ve read, this one most definitely takes the cake.

  • Easy to abuse: Fit entosis, take mobile depot in cargo, take acc gate, refit - boom! Big advantage over everyone coming in after you.
  • Reduces fitting liberty and will render a lot of popular fits impossible to use. (Some ships would just about be able to fit guns, prop and entosis and have no PG left for tank, and that’s the t1 frigates I’m talking about. Worm, succubus etc. have a LOT of PG, making these notoriously strong frigates even stronger)
  • Will only encourage acc. gate camping where people can also bring recons and other cov-ops stuff (now you’ve got to be insta-align AND fit an entosis)

Just because some dudes don’t seem to be able to figure out how to take out stabbed farmers does not mean CCP has to ruin FW for everyone else.

(Tristan daCuhna) #52

Didn’t think about mobile depots. Thanks for pointing that out. You don’t to be insta aligning to pass a gate camp on plex though. Just warp at 10km and spam activate gate.

(Sam Knob) #53

You don’t really know how acceleration gates work, do you? Warping at 10km does nothing more than eliminate the chance of you bumping off the gate itself while trying to activate it. Other than that, there’s no difference between activating an acceleration gate and initiating warp to a random spot. If you have an above 2s align time, than you’re going to get caught by instalockers on the gate.

(Tristan daCuhna) #54

And yet despite apparently “not knowing” how to enter a plex I’ve successfully avoided camps on acceleration gates for the last 5 years by using this gate sliding method. This includes flying 1600mm plated cruisers.

(Daemun Khanid) #55

You can in fact be caught on gates. I’ve both caught ppl and been caught. Ppl just seldom use insta lockers on gates but when they do they work.

(Sam Knob) #56

That does not mean instalockers would not have caught you. It just means you’ve been lucky not to run into instalockers.

(Tristan daCuhna) #57

I’ll agree to disagree with you.

(Sam Knob) #58

From my own experience, I’ve caught countless pilots on the acceleration gate even after the sliding animation has started, but I’ve got a feeling that won’t convince you, so I made this:


(Tristan daCuhna) #59

From personal experience I’ve continued to warp into a plex even with the warp disrupted icon showing on my overview. Try continuing to spam activate gate until the ship is actually warping away.

(Sam Knob) #60

I’m not going to try to prove you wrong on this one, because I honestly think nothing can convince you, however, your method of avoiding getting caught on the acceleration gate sounds more like an unfixed exploit than an intended game-mechanic.