The MWD/cloak trick just wastes 10 seconds per system - blitz the gates instead!
3 Likes
I used to sell corps with standings, i know about missions; caracal navy DOES have crap range and is only good if you want to mwd to every target as opposed to a drake or oni which can just sit there and shoot from 60k away.
You dont specialise in blitzing, you specialise in YOUR OWN kind of blitzing.
So what your saying is I dont? interesting, untrue but interesting none the less.
Kind of funny tbvh.
Nope. But whatever, if you wanna play the ‘‘oh i know everything im an expert’’ that would prove something to anyone with an actual IQ; which is your not.
GL with your business model and trying to convince people your the best 
o7
He’s not, trust me, i run standings in nullsec and i would not use a caracal navy for blitzing missions xD
kruner munning effect?
is that like sods law? i know what coles law is…
Oh you naughty pot-stirrer and chaos-enabler, you! 
@Feonar_Cadelanne honestly, trains for a drake if your in hs and in no rush. The issue with turrets largely is damage typs and trans matching (where you look at your targets direction and match it to lower transversal for better hits)
Cheap as chips, no real micromanagement; at high levels can even tank some level 4’s but personally id use something bigger for those.
Used this in the past too…
More isk but travels better and no need to burn all the way to structures or into rats.
Caracal navy might not be a bad choice if you wanna full active fit it i guess, range is actually not that bad; at least comparable to drake. all three have similar dps but caracal navy would be better to hit frigs… mostly cruisers and bc in level 3 though lol.
When you get to level 4’s train Enyo up all level 5, with a 100mil fit and some experience it can solo run some of the burners and also be used for pvp (depending on targets)
At the end of the day though the choice is yours. Either way defo worth training caldari for the gila and the beastly rattlsnake.
Good luck!!
I was out of line. Save for Anderson, where they cannot be avoided, it is not my intention to pick fights here, especially with people I don’t know - I apologize for heating things up. I’m willing to cool things off if you are and take a few steps back. There’s no point in arguing over vague generalizations, it comes down to specific that can be measured and compared - I say that to everyone, not just you. You obviously are intelligent and experienced - I don’t mean that sarcastically - and if you’re willing to consider that I might be to at least some extent and would like to discuss it further here or elsewhere I’d be happy to. I am always happy to consider the possibility that I’m wrong. If you have a fit that you think would be better for L1-L3s then I would be grateful for the opportunity to examine and learn from it. Again, I do not say this sarcastically.
Carrier gate camps exist in pretty much every lowsec system where I live. They field attack fighters so they can decloak ships using the MWD-Cloak trick by MWD-launching the attack fighters at them without needing to acquire a target lock. The fighters still approach your last known location after you’ve initiated cloak so they end up bumping you into decloaking and then you’re dead. This has a 99% success rate in decloaking ships using the MWD-Cloak trick. This is why we advise our grinders not to attempt to use this trick doing distribution missions (which we discourage in general because they’re basically ■■■■ with one exception in which they are golden). I’ve never had an issue with the MWD-Cloak trick outside of a carrier gate camp or bubble camp.
For OP’s benefit, to understand why ship selection is such a big deal:
The Drake fit above is a fairly standard issue, bread-and-butter L3 fit. Extremely easy to use. Very hard to die flying that thing. Compare and contrast, however, our Caracal Navy Issue fit, which has comparable costs and skill requirements:
- Our fit is much faster using both using AB and MWD (684m/s and 1,965m/s vs 425m/s) - this matters a lot in missions because you don’t want to waste time flying from pocket to pocket or to an acceleration gate or to some object you need to loot, etc.
- Our fit also has far superior agility, so it is faster at aligning and accelerating to/decelerating from warp - so you don’t waste time jumping systems or using acceleration gates
- In regards to both points above: even if the Drake had a T1 50MN MWD, it’s MWD speed would be a grossly inferior 1,157m/s and would have horrible turning/acceleration/deceleration, so it just won’t have close to the same mobility. Technically a Drake could fit an MJD (which you don’t need in L3s), but this honestly wouldn’t make too much of a different even in a triple-propulsion setup due to the combined performance failing to live up to the CNI.
- It has a substantially higher rate of fire, which is important because it kills most rats in 1-3 shots and you want those shots to be as quick as possible. If you have one hundred bees to kill, you don’t want to spend 10 seconds killing each individual bee.
- Even after reloads, it inflicts substantially more damage in a single shot against the majority of L1-L3 targets than a Drake does in several shots. Minor exception: the Drake inflicts a bit more damage against BCs than the CNI; however, BCs show up in small numbers, if at all, in L3 missions (except for specific one mission that is almost entirely BCs), so in practice this minor disadvantage is easily offset by its overall superior killing power against the bulk of rats present in L3 missions. (As a matter of convenience, my organization has a blacklist of BC-heavy L3 missions in case our runners using our CNI fit want to skip them, but it’s their choice.)
- Even after the very lengthy reload time of RLMLs, both the DPS and cumulative damage over time of the CNI exceed that of the Drake (save for the minor exception above)
- While it is true the range of the CNI is shorter (but by no means “short”), the speed (esp. ability to close in on pockets using MWD) and rate of killing the bulk of targets (time you save overall, even if you account for time you had to spend flying to pockets due to lower range) more than make up for it. (Missiles travel slowly, so you’d want to be closer anyway just to reduce the time-to-contact.)
- Alphas perform better in the CNI than they do in a Drake
- Drake’s damage bonus only applies to Kinetic missiles; CNI’s damage bonus applies to all missiles, which is important because you can apply NPC-specific damage on a mission-by-mission basis and apply more actual damage using the proper “weakness” than you would using kinetic if it is the “wrong” damage type (this is particularly true if the enemy is primarily weak against EM)
Here a damage-over-time graph (not to be confused with a DPS graph) of our fit (Green) vs the Drake (Red) using missiles-only against Drones, Frigs, Destroyers, Cruisers, and Battlecruisers over the course of 3 minutes. Cruiser and Battlecruiser is the same for CNI, so it appears as “one line”. Drones are not shown, but if they were shown they’d contribute identically between both fits.
Narrower bands indicate higher rate of fire, which is a desirable property because it means you kill stuff faster in the same time frame. Notice that even after the lengthy reload, the CNI continues to outperform the Drake in general, with the Drake having a minor advantage over BCs after about 63 seconds of continuous firing. (BCs don’t take that long for either the CNI or the Drake to kill.) Since the CNI uses drones (so does the Drake), it isn’t “useless” during reload - the drones dispatch L3 rats quickly in their own right, so often times you’ll have the drones attack one target and your missiles another to maximize throughput.
A similar graph can be made for most L3-appropriate ships vs the Drake because the Drake is categorically one of the worst ships to use in terms of throughput in L3 missions. What it is designed to do it does exceptionally well, but it is not designed for throughput. It is, however, the recommended ship for the freshest of the fresh of newbies and those looking to passively mission - like everyone else, I would recommend the Drake for that demographic/use case as well.
Edit: In the above graph, the CNI is using range scripts; the more proficient runners in our organization who use that fit use precision scripts, which sacrifices a little bit of range (not much) to increase throughput considerably, so the green lines would be even higher.
I think a lot of the respondents here have missed this line in your OP.
That being the case (you’re not super concerned about isk/hr efficiency), any weapons system will be able to complete L4 missions without issue (given appropriate skills). Some will be easier than others, as turrets (long range ones, which are good for reaching out & touching the rats in L4 misisons) will have issues killing the elite frigates if they close on you (i.e. get into their orbit around your ship). Cruise missile based ships will be able to kill them eventually, no matter the range.
My suggestion would be to pick a ship you like the look of (have you seen the Nightmare? ) and work towards that. The reason all the L4 fits include drones of some sort is because it can be easier to throw out 5x T2 light drones to take care of frigates while your missiles/turrets kill everything else. If you really do not want to use drones, ever, an option is to fly a ‘sniper’ fit, and keep everything outside 40km, and you need never launch drones again… I have drones on my Nightmare, but never use them cause it’s easier to just shoot things with the lasers!
Edit: This is a fit I’ve posted before, it still works.
Regards,
Cypr3ss.
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It’s the valley of despair.
( from the Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia )
AKA When all you have is a nail, all around you looks like a hammer… including your fingers.
(yeah the inversion of the terms is on purpose, like the use of other words was)
Learn to do math and what is average DPS FFS.
OMFG who cares about that ?
And here you forgot to say that the drake has more range(80km vs 30 for the CNI) , more tank(100 HP/s vs 40, with same modules, and then the drake has a bonus to resists). Also more salvos lost from CNI because target dies before the next salve, so even less actual DPS in the CNI.
Also you are saying that you selected a subset of the missions where CNI can outperform drake, in order to claim that CNI is better than drake …
I personally like the caracal navy, especially for its super projection+DPS in HS which can allow to range tank, I recommend it in some cases, but it’s definitely not better than a drake at doing L3 missions with low skills. So at a moment you claim it’s for “for low skils” and then you claim CNI is better than drake for low skillz… nope.
And going rapid light is… lol.
Myrmidon is a very capable ship.
Instead of using light, med or heavies - if you are Omega switch to Sentry Drones. The Myrm has 100m bandwidth, allowing it to field 4 of these drone type. I would point you towards Wardens.
Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II
Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
F-90 Compact Sensor Booster
Medium Micro Jump Drive
Large C5-L Compact Shield Booster
Upgraded Thermal Dissipation Amplifier I (mission rat specific, these are Serpentis)
Upgraded Kinetic Deflection Amplifier I
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Medium Drone Durability Enhancer I
Medium Drone Durability Enhancer I
Medium Drone Durability Enhancer I
Warden II x 4
Hobgoblin II x5
Salvage Drone I x5
Targeting Range Script x1
You could switch out the drone rigs for something else. Tthe range for wardens reaches 100km and the targetting also gets to 100. The MJD gives you instant 100km bufffer. You just have to be careful which direction you jump in. If you can also fit it, add a small RR armour. Or options like a Auto Targeter - which increases the number of locks that the ship is capable of. (my skills are maxed here, so YMMV)
You want to focus on the small NPC first, because these are the fastest to get under the tracking of the wardens.
Once out get used to this, you can apply the same skills and observation to L4 and the Dominix.
1 Like
If you wanna do chill lvl 4 mission running, then you should use a Raven.
- you can select your dmg type (super important)
- you have alot of range
- you dont need to care about tracking
- you can tank everything
- you have light drones to kill frigs.
I guess the Typhoon could be better, if you min max it, but it uses more drones.
You can also use a sniper MJD Dominix with sentry drones. You jump away, kill everything and you can instantly pull and redeploy your drones, incase they take dmg. But you are 100km away, so that shouldnt be a big problem. You could do the same with the myrmidon.
What organisation are you part of and why should we trust their knowledge about lvl 4 missions? (just curious) - found it, guess you guys have alot of experience.
Are you guys full clearing or blitzing the missions? (that could change your shipchoice by alot)
Please link your Typhoon fit, i was always to figure one out myself.
cruise T2
[Typhoon, PVE sniper]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Large Armor Repairer II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Large Cap Battery II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
100MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Cruise Missile Launcher II
Small Tractor Beam II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Warrior II x10
Hobgoblin II x15
Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile x1500
Caldari Navy Nova Cruise Missile x1500
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile x1500
Nova Fury Cruise Missile x1500
Scourge Fury Cruise Missile x1500
Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile x1500
Inferno Fury Cruise Missile x1500
Caldari Navy Inferno Cruise Missile x1662
1 Like
just to give an update - i flew lvl 2 missions a bit with a caracal, then tried a maller… and I really liked the maller 
missiles are nice, but like some people mentioned, you don’t ‘lose’ as much dps to ‘overdamaging’ rats. that being said, EM damage sucks (esp since I like 50km sniping lvl2s with beam+radio), but whatever.
oh, and amarr ships look amazing. and the pewpewpew sounds nice
meanwhile, here’s my fit. will try to get into a harbinger asap, but want to increase my caldari rep anyway, so might as well do lvl2s until i have enough rep to do 3s
[Maller, Feonar Cadelanne’s Maller]
Reactive Armor Hardener
Extruded Compact Heat Sink
Extruded Compact Heat Sink
‘Refuge’ Adaptive Nano Plating I
Type-D Restrained Capacitor Power Relay
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer
Medium Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery
F-12 Enduring Tracking Computer
10MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
‘Integrated’ Hobgoblin x3
Tracking Speed Script x1
Standard M x5
Optimal Range Script x1
Multifrequency M x5
Radio M x5
Extruded Compact Heat Sink x1
Damage-over-time is more relavant to DPS, but I don’t expect you to know that.
Learn to read. I mentioned this.
CNI is a speed tank… why do you think it has dual-propulsion? Shields never break because it never gets hit. Even Alphas don’t get hit. We train our crew, Alphas and Omega, to speed tank so they can fly without ever having to dock up for repairs. Maybe you should learn to speed tank, too. Problem solved.
Patently false, but I don’t expect you to know this because you’ve never flown the damn thing and we have extensively. Ever heard of preemptive target switching? It’s something smart people do. When you know a target dies in a certain number of shots, you switch targets before the first one dies knowing it will die to missiles already in flight. That, and the shorter range means that fewer missile volleys are in flight for shorter periods of time than longer range missileboats, so even if you didn’t engage in preemptive target switching, fewer volleys using RLMLs would be wasted than using Heavies or Cruise, etc.
This IS true because the CONTEXT has been from the very beginning BLITZING. When you blitz, you skip missions that suck because they take too long and aren’t worth it. Even if you had an ultra super duper ship that could take on God-Almighty himself, you would want to skip missions like The Blockade in favor of shorter missions if your objective is blitzing. That’s literally the whole point of blitzing: finish missions as quickly as possible and skip missions that take forever relative to their rewards.
I could easily provide a ship better than the Drake for use in any L3 if you’re not skipping any. This isn’t particularly difficult because most L3-appropriate ships are better than the Drake. Drake truly is bottom tier.
You obviously don’t know much about damage/precision mechanics OR damage modeling if you think this is laughable. You obviously don’t know how to read the above graph either. You probably think using RHMLs in L4s is dumb, too, huh? Your reputation on the forums for being short-sighted, illogical, and ignorant is well earned.
Cruise Typhoon is one of the better L4 ships at any price, I agree. Fitted properly, it outperforms some of the faction ships and even some of the Mauraders. Our preferred ship is RHML Typhoon Fleet Issue (which isn’t a direct improvement on the Typhoon but has a somewhat similar mode of operation). Our Typhoon fit is a Speed Tank (in only one mission it also hull tanks, but can complete it without having to warp out for repairs midway), and our Typhoon Fleet Issue is both a Speed and a Hull tank, but you can complete any mission without warping out even if it breaches to hull (it’s a freaking lawnmower, finishes missions 3x faster than the regular Typhoon and several other ships I’ve seen, including blingy 3b Machs and Vargurs sporting implants and boosters). The TFI should be flown only by those extremely knowledgeable in the theory and practice of speed tanking and engage in active gameplay… otherwise you will die very quickly; it is not for newbies!!! Since our CNI fit is also a speed tank, it’s a good training ship for use of the TFI.
http://www.unitedstandings.org/careers/usia-grinder-fittings/
I give kudos to this guy for bringing back the thread to its original purpose. The thread got sidetracked badly. I do agree that, if the goal is to have fun, just pick a ship that flies fun. If it’s sexy, if it has cool weapons like lazerrrrrr beeeeeeemz, go for it.
@Feonar_Cadelanne: There’s a balance been playstyle and throughput. One thing you do need to understand if you do care about throughput, however, is that maximizing throughput means certain playstyles or weapon systems are not an option. You absolutely positively will not maximize throughput using drones or lasers in low level PVE, for example. The same can be said for turrets in general in low-end PVE. In contrast, turrets are needed to maximize throughput in high-end PVE. You have to make the distinction between “good”, which is relative, and “sufficient”, which is absolute, and this will vary from context to context. That which is good in high end PVE can be poor in low end PVE and vice versa: Rattlesnake is trash in low end PVE but is golden in higher end PVE, etc.
Me:
min/maxxers:
result:
https://imgur.com/7mzu1yt
Well then, I agree with your agreement.
If I was in the market for standings boosting, I’d probably hire your group, you seem really into it.
Now if you’ll excuse me, there’s some purefying conflag needs dispensing.
2 Likes
@ OP
If your objective is to have enjoyment in the activity than challanging yourself with a sub optimal ship that is cool and you like, is the way to go I think. Like any battle cruiser is more or less capbale of doing Lv 3s and any BS should be good for Lv 4’s… so just pick the one you like that does not rely on drones? I personally like Minmatar ships. Projectile turrets coz its instant damage, manually fly around to get transversal right, flexible ammo aplication and various ways to tank. I like wacky builds so i try all sorts of stuff for PVE. If it works slap it on the ship and see if works. It is the minmatar way.
However, If you want to do the same missions over and over again, all day long in as quick a time as possible then you should listen to one of the nerds with the maths…
Tried this today - it’s actually pretty good. Using navy wardens (don’t have L5 sentry), and they have enormous HP! Only problem is the ship itself is quite slow, so if I want to get to an acceleration gate it takes ages, but otherwise pretty easy.
One issue I had with the Maller is the low DPS - probably because of EM damage, which is less than ideal I suppose? For SoE L3s.
Still can’t decide which way to go lol. Already spent 150m on new ships / modules etc, though, so need to grind a bit before I go further experimenting
thanks for all the help everyone!
I also hate drones I only use them as assist dmg, but I don´t give a rats ass if they all die I just get new ones my hence why I mostly focus on Caldari,Minmatar and if I use any Gallente I rather use Megathron or Hyperion and so on because man Vexor,Domenix and Brutix are so damn ugly looking and boring to use.
I spent 2-4 days doing level 2 missions until I had standing for 3 because well I had to even with the correct skill at 3 (max as alpha) And ded sites 1-3 in a Exequror Navy Issue it has 5% to hybrid dmg and rate of fire so it worked fine.
I even use Tarya only transport even if lets say Miasmos has a damn ore cargo. But man the Miasmos is bleh compared o Tarya
But yeah Im sick of Drones in general but I never been a fan of Gallente´s damn uggly drone boats sure Megathron and Thorax or hyper is nice looking. But the drone boats, to me are just lazy ass round ships that took them 10-15 shitting to come up with the design.