Main War declaration thread

[Teckos_Pech]

@Hlamon

Defensive side don’t want anything attacker have. Don’t want loot, don’t want kills, don’t want “tears”. Even if defender overcome bad chances and “win” it will do nothing good for them.

So What? This is a competitive game, players can’t always have what they want.

@Hlamon

OP ask for clear goal for defender side, I agree with it. I’m all for wardecs, more conflict is good, but mechanics need to be improved, this is my opinion on the matter.

But look at the OP again.

@Punky260

A goal
So the most important part of a good and healthy wardec system is already found: You have to fight for/about something. A war needs to have a target. Instead of just being the button that disables CONCORD, it should be the tool to reach an aim. May it be to destroy a structure or to push those miners out of “your system” or just to take revenge on someone; you need to set a goal which will define the wardec.

What does that even mean?

Does this part help?

@Punky260

Win or lose
This also helps with the next thing a good mechanic needs to fullfill. And that’s recognizing a clear winner and loser. In the current state, the war ends after 7days (if no one renews it) and that’s it. Not even a “congratulation” is given out, as the game does not know or care who won the war. But this is actually a really big deal in the human understanding of war. The game defines an attacker and defender, but doesn’t follow up if the attacker can achieve what he is after (since there is no target atm) or if the defender could avert the enemy from reaching the goal.

If we take a look to Nullsec wars, where wardecs aren’t used, we can clearly see who won a war (with a very few exceptions) by looking at the objectives and who took them. This is usually also used when looking at a single battle, while the always present ISK-war gets added or is the main focus. In the latter case, the ISK-war becomes the objective, which is absolutely legit of course.

Nope. This tells us nothing. Further it is incoherent. That part about, “…as the game does not know or care who won the war.” Precisely. The game does not care. Because the game is made up of all of use players and the Devs. Without us it is nothing except largely useless code. And guess what, I don’t care about some war dec in HS that does not involve me. I just don’t. The people who care are the players in the war dec themselves.

@Punky260

An example
So summarizing those points, the new wardec could look like that:
The attacker want’s to start a war. He chooses a victim and a goal. A citadel for example, or simply an amount of ISK they want to have destroyed by the end of the war. The goal should also have an influence on the length of the war, but in general the attacker should be able to select how long the war will go - in a certain timeframe of course. This could reach from a 3day war to destroy 1bil in ships up to a 10day war to destroy a structure for example. The defenders have the same goals. If it is a citadel, they need to protect it. If it is an ISK amount, they can reach it before the enemy. You don’t really win a war if you shoot 1b, but lose 5b to do that. As always the numbers are just examples and I would trust CCP to finetune those to a healthy state. Yes, I really do.

Does this help? Not really. It is fine if all you want to do is blow up pixels, but beyond that it provides absolutely no pathway for “pushing those miners our of system X”. None. In fact, this actually limits war decs in that you have to specify a reason and a victory condition…which leaves out things like “pushing those miners our of system X.”

@Punky260

Regional limitations
That brings me to a second part of the wardec mechanic. It wouldn’t make much sense to fight over an Astrahus and be allowed to shoot the defender in all of New Eden.

This also limits conflict…and why doesn’t it make sense to shoot them all over New Eden? It is a war for crying out loud, not a table tennis match.

@Punky260

With this, you allow people to actually run from a war - which is purpose of the design.

You can already run from a war, drop to an NPC corp. Move to another region. Running locator agents are not that good due to the watchlist changes.

@Punky260

Actual fights
But since the mechanic should encourage fighting (and not just flying from one area to another), how do you get people to fight if they don’t really feel the desire to do so? Well, that is also possible: You make them lose something if they don’t come to the fight AND give them a reward for winning.
In case of a structure as war goal, it’s simple: It get’s blown up. In case of the “system drive out” it’s more complicated. But you could make war-losers criminals (also to the local law-enforcement) for the same time the war was ongoing. (10 days of war = 10 days after the war you are not allowed to enter the system). This would be a mayor drawback if you lose a war.

Wow…just wow. So, this really fails to recognize that there are players who get war decced and simply do not want to fight at all. I mean at all. They’ll dock up and even log off for a week if necessary. Most will drop to NPC corps. This is why war dec mechanics are always a topic of whining, often by (some) players on both sides.

And now we are going to set these players as criminals who can be shot by anyone? Yeah…really bad idea. This is cramming PvP down players throats.

@Punky260

TL;DR // summary
There needs to be a goal (structure/ISK/space) set by the attacker.

No, there really doesn’t. The reason for the war could be I think your player name is stupid so I’m going to start a war and try and shoot you.

@Punky260

A region needs to be chosen by the attacker.

Reduces conflict, the exact opposite of the stated goal.

@Punky260

And a reward for the winner (this can also be the defender).

What is this mysterious reward? Right now the benefit of a war is determined by the person initiating said war. Be it kills or some other intended result.

@Hlamon

Make newbros corps less appealing as wardec targets. In my opinion, making wardecs cost more will do exactly this. This is point of discussion for me.

Now sit down and see how an older more experienced player could abuse this. And as noted, new players should be looking to corps that have more experienced players that can help them…or be willing to take the risk of starting their own corporation.

@Hlamon

Make wardec mechanic more appealing for defender side. In my opinion, providing clear win condition will do the thing. This is point of discussion for me.

You have been around since 2009…maybe you haven’t been reading the forums much, but no this won’t help. Those who are fine with fighting and PvP often go to LS or NS and really don’t bother with war decs. Or they go into war deccing and don’t complain about war decs (unless it is about people dropping to NPC corps). Or they just do NOT want to enegage in ship-to-ship PvP at all. In which case nothing you can do will change their behavior.