Navy Battleship Balance Pass

I agree with you on the role bonuses.

@M_Cincinnatus
Role bonuses are utilized to help reinforce a “role” for the ship.

Examples:

All t1 destroyers gain range bonuses for role bonus. This allows them to shoot out farther to counter frigates (combined with the tracking bonuses). Their role is “anti-frigate”

All t1/navy battlecruisers have range bonuses to help apply damage against cruisers at range, the navy variants all have tracking/application bonuses to help them apply to cruisers even better. Making BC’s role “anti-cruiser”.

T1 battleships dont have role bonuses, other navy ships do not have role bonuses. The only navy ships that do are the EWAR frigs, and this is because they have a role of being combat ships with EWAR bonuses (and penalties). Or unique role like the navy maulus with added warp scramble strength (which supplements the existing scram range) and further defines its role. Navy BC’s have role bonuses because theyre Bc’s with an already defined role of “anti-cruiser”.

Navy battleships getting role bonuses wouldnt make sense, as t1 BS also do not have them and navy BS dont have a unique or specific role in mind that would warrant a role bonus.

Pirate ships have role bonuses as theyre designed that way through progression. Pirate is better than navy, navy better than t1. Navy and pirate battleship HP/sensor values arent much different until you factor in the role bonuses for pirate ships, which edge them out past what navy BS are capable of.

Navy ships mainly just need trait changes, slot adjustments and fitting tweaks and then theyll be much more desirable without being OP.

I disagree here. Range bonus on guns for dominix just makes it a sub-par rattlesnake, since gun range can simply be fixed by a simple mid-slot tracking computer. Even if you try to put dominix in sniper role, people will choose rattlesnake over this every time.

The idea behind drone control range bonus was to free up high slots. Most other ships only have to give up a mid or low slot for extra range, but the dominix has to give up firepower and/or rig slots for range. With extra drone range built in, navy dominix can fit a full rack of weapons no problem, or still retain that Swiss Army knife role.

Even tho most role bonuses are usually about 1-2 modules worth of bonuses, I chose 60km range bonus which is about 3 modules worth because drone operational range works differently. Most mods are percent based bonuses, but drone range is fixed quantity, and maybe that’s why it’s harder to get the dominix out to 150-200km sniping range. The drone range bonus would help out a lot, and I thought it would be cool for the navy dominix to go all in on drones. However, the dominix is not my favorite ship, so I’m not too vested in the topic. Just don’t mess with my megathron hulls! :rofl:

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Phoon problems - you need to learn full Turrets, Missiles, Drones, Shield and Armour.

Give it a Minnie bonus - web range, or painter … but its just a nightmare to set up. You need to shield tank it to fit damage mods for Turret/Drones or Missile/Drones. Its slot layout is rubbish for shield and tackle though, so it sits in crapland for evermore.

Painter for me - it would be great for missiles, for drones and guns - all at range above web.

I will just have to agree to disagree with you both here. T1 battleships are supposed to be boring “starter” or “pvp throwaway” ships. The navy and pirate battleships tend to be keepers. I think where we won’t be able to meet is that I feel navy battleships should be close in power to pirate battleships, as per my earlier post of the cat and mouse game between navies and pirates. My memory may be off, but I seem to recall long ago vindicator didn’t have a role bonus and was very close in power to navy mega. Currently vindicator outshines navy mega. I suppose to reflect that navy and pirate ships should be bonused, the skill requirements could be increased, like Battleship III or IV, but that would probably have to be another thread. But if we cannot agree whether they should have role bonuses or not, is fine. That’s what these forums are for, to flesh these topics out.

Edit: Also, even with all the new suggested role bonuses for navy battleships, I feel that they still do not surpass pirate ships like rattlesnake or machariel.
Edit#2: Which is fine, since pirates were supposed to be more savvy and craftier than their navy counterparts.

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Perfectly fine with it not being at rattlesnake levels.
Two domis atm are different kinds of beasts I would prefer it to stay that way.

Drone control range isn’t an issue for me ie I don’t mind ship receiving it.

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I understand your point and i agree with it to some degree. I think we can agree that some navy ships lack a role or are simply to similar to other ships. But when comparing navy and pirate dont forget that pirate ships require alot more skills to fly.

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Ship would be oddball it always requires from pilot to have max skills for everything to fly it at peak performance.

Removing gun line would drop skill requirements making it more obtainable for never players,training just for missile and drones that are kinda mandatory to train anyway while keeping it away from copy paste caldari ship mantra.

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They are close in power, but pirate will always be “better” from a numbers point of view. The ship progression in the game has always been t1 < navy < pirate. That doesnt mean you cant kill a pirate ship with a navy ship or even t1. It just means you get “more” benefits/bonuses/roles.

This is how it is in the frigate and cruiser lines as well. RLML nosprey and scyfi’s are good skirmishing ships, but are less powerful than an RLML orthrus.

The thing that really differentiates cruiser/frig line compared to battleship is cost.

A slicer, comet, firetail, hookbill are 14-20m roughly. A worm, daredevil, dramiel, garmur are 40-70m. Roughly x2 to x3 the cost.

The scyfi or nosprey are (depending on LP prices) 50m to 80m. An orthrus is 230-260m. So again about a x3 cost increase.

The issue with navy battleships is that pirate ships are being farmed so hard, their prices are nearly identical in some cases, and cheaper in others (260m bhaal, wot). So when you look at a navy mega, you see, oh its 500m. Then look at a vindi which is 650m. You say, well damn, ill just buy a vindi then, and ill do better than the mega. Which is why youre getting the perception that the navy mega and vindi should be more competitive with each other.

Imagine if the navy mega was 300m or 250m. Then youd see a more realistic progression/perception in the ship line. Vindis and machs along with many other pirate BS used to be 1.1b to 1.5b back in the day.

That being said, the navy mega does have some advantages over a vindi. It has 8 lows , compared to the vindi’s 7. So its possible for mega to tank more than the vindi. It also has a utility high, which can make it capable of capping out ships it fights. Vindi just relies on raw damage to break tanks. Does that make the mega more desirable? Maybe, it all depends on what youre trying to do. If prices were separated more, i feel it would make the navy line more desirable in some cases.

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Except that minmatar do not have any ships with drone bonuses, along with per the lore, minmatar doesnt have a manufacturer that provides drone bonuses.

We may not do a copy paste with caldari, but youd be doing a copy/paste of amarr. As they have ships that have large drone bays (some bonused, some not) and missiles. Armageddon, sacrilege, damnation, prophecy.

Also, typhoon is typically armor fit, so its an armor missile ship compared to caldari shield missile fit. Also minmatar have more utility highs. Even though theyre both missile ships, they are not close to being copy/paste between a typhoon and a raven.

Agreed. This may be a sidetrack, but I’ve always felt navy and pirate ships are too easy to skill into. Perhaps it is not off-topic to discuss higher skill requirements for these ships, as it does have to do with balance. The monetary barrier to these ships are not enough, isk is too easy to come by, even for new players. I feel a skill barrier would be appropriate as well. But if this topic should be moved to a new thread, that is fine.

I’ve enjoyed my progression from dominix->megathron->navy mega->Kronos, because it has made me appreciate faction ships and marauders even more. I think a more forced progression path would be in line with keeping balance as well.

I do see your point, and I do like a path of progression. But I still feel navy ships should be “closer” in power to pirate ships. Some players want to play the good guy, and may not want to take the path of “pirate” ships. Also, none of the proposed role bonuses knock the machariel off its perch in its role, as an example. The bonuses just make them stronger ships, as military hubris tends to do, while pirates still keep their “creative” edge. Maybe increasing skill required is in line. And there is still a path of progression from T1 -> navy/pirate -> marauder.

But disagreements are fine, CCP will either grant a balance pass or not, their vision of progression is the only one that matters. I will continue to use Kronos for mission full clears, machariel for blitzing mission that I can’t decline, and navy mega for sniping drone missions that I can’t decline either. Regardless, I will still get use out of all the ship types no matter what the devs decide. :grin:

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Higher skill requirements will not change much. You will only put another 2 or 3 days on top and thats it. I dont think that higher requirements will make ppl value them higher. I jumped directly into a fleet typhoon because i like the drone/missile combo.

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I don’t have any other ideas for a solution then. But I still feel the status quo is not good either, as people also just jump over T1 and navy battleships straight into pirate battleships as well, missing some valuable progression and play experience. :thinking:

I don’t like the reduced hardpoint count, I’m fine with adjusting the damage and range, etc etc etc, But I seriously dislike taking away hardpoints. I like watching 8 missiles swoosh out. It’s the only reason I trained i skilled into it from the raven in the first place.

(I haven’t flown it in years, but I really roll my eyes at adjusting damage by removing weapon slots, just tweak the damage modifier and then you don’t have empty hardpoints on the ship because you know the art team isn’t going to patch them out…)

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Agreed, but i think that has more to do with pirate BS being farmed so insanely easily, that they are cheaper and easier to get into compared to navy.

The barghest is a good example of how pirate BS should be implemented. You can only get the BPC from random belt rat spawns. You can’t just sit and run anom’s all day in your safe null pocket and then run the escalations you get and get bpc’s. You have to search for them in low sec belts, often while avoiding hostile players.

Either pirate BS need to be harder to get, or navy battleships need to be easier/cheaper to get.

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I’d like to see the Navy 'Geddon made into a drone ship like the base one is.

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In the case of the navy raven, there is no damage bonus to modify, which is the reason it has 8 launchers. However, that older design for it has limited its utility and fitting.

Ideally (and i know you wont agree), it would lose 1 launcher, then gain a damage bonus in place of the velocity bonus. That would do a lot to make the RNI more flexible and help fitting (especially torpedos). Pretty much like what they did to the navy drake.

Wishful thinking, but lets say it got a 10% damage bonus and -1 launcher. Youd be at 1300dps with faction torps w/ a 9.9k volley, and 1500dps with rage torps.

Some would say “but thats the same bonus as the barghest, with 1 more launcher”. Yes, but it doesnt have a scram bonus, isnt as fast, doesnt have double utility, nor does it have a range bonus. A torpedo typhoon fleet can do 1500-1750dps as well, but its through a combination of torpedos and heavy drones. Whereas the “new” RNI would primarily be missile based dps (as its caldari).

Im not sure that the progression is actually important. When looking at Navy ships you see some ships being upgrades, but some dont exist that way. Look at the Geddon, as T1 its a Drone/Neut while the Navy gets a Drone/Laser boat, so the Navy has a role that doesnt exist with T1. In the end it comes down to what you want and how much pocket money you have. The problem with progression i see is that several options are not available as a T2 version, which would follow the progression line.

I can agree that progression may have an “end game” with the T2 battleships, and it is quite the progression, skill-wise. But progression or not, one problem that still sticks out for me, especially since I like flying gallente, is the vindicator is far superior to navy mega, and yet they are nearly identical in price, and the difference in training times are negligible. The vindicator has a smaller drone bay, but could still field a full flight of heavies if it so chooses.

I really like my navy mega for a sniping role that I use it for, but I’m really considering buying a vindicator for that role instead cause it’s so much better. It seems very unbalanced, and makes the navy mega almost seem pointless. The suggested falloff bonus for navy mega could possibly change my mind at least. The vindicator would still have more raw power, but I think I can live with the new differences.

And as much as I like the idea of market forces separating the two ships, it just doesn’t seem to be working, and it’s tough to count on market forces as it’s not even always within CCP’s control to balance it.

This will likely be the last time I touch on this subject as there seems to be no solutions, that I see, except to balance out navy ships. So at this time, and to get fully back on track of the topic, disagreement or no, I am still in support of adding role bonuses to empire faction battleships.

I agree with you. The problem is that alot of ships are similar and just shift a bit left and rigth when it comes to a handful of statts. The result is what you see that one ship comes out on top because the overall statts are benefitial.

Im still agreeing with you to some degree. But it will be hard to find fitting bonuses.