Hey guys, I just wanted to see. Has the Economy collapsed yet?
I’m getting awfully tired of waiting for the collapse. Especially after the OP said he did the numbers on this and was so sure it’d happen.
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Yes, the economy has collapsed.
Oh, wait, I thought you were talking about that thing where you can’t place sell orders anymore because of “striking workers.”
I’m more profitable than before!
Long live The Collapse!
All this is irrelevant rambling.
Your definition of an economy collapse doesn’t matter. The only definition that matters is OP’s, where he sets out:
If you want to talk off topic about what you think it means, you’re free to start your own thread.
I’m waiting for OP’s threats of a ruined “ecoomy” [sic] of EVE to occur.
As far as I see, Perimeter is still healthy, Jita is still healthy, market ebbs and flows are still happening, just like they had for the last 16+ years prior to this change.
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It did - amarr has no abaddons and guardians, jita will lose all of them in next few days.
It totally has nothing to do with Raravoss.
There are other reasons for that: the demand for those ships is higher because of what has been happening in Raravoss. The market doesn’t work in splendid isolation of events
There has been a change in the market (and I’m speaking subjectively - I’ve not kept records) - we seem to have lost a lot of the large volume sell orders doing the rapid 0.01 ISK shift every five minutes or so if they are undercut (the classic automaton: human or machine).
The effect of this is that supply seems to be less and prices have drifted upwards as sellers have having to put thought and effort into the game.
The market hasn’t collapsed or broken, it has gone through a re-adjustment as the automatons have stopped. Trust me, if Abaddons are in short supply and profitable at their current price point, someone will make them and sell them.
Large ships are a bit of a pain to supply to market: You can tie up a lot of capital and they are bulky to haul to market - manufacturing at the market cuts into profits.
And turnover isn’t great either. There are better things to make to supply - it’s a bit niche for me.
Lol no
Are we doomed yet? Should I start prepping by buying all the carbon?
hAs sOcIeTy BeEn bRoUgHt To iTs kNeEs jUsT As tHe OP pReDiCtEd???
In case it wasn’t clear: I was being sarcastic. Sorry for the confusion.
I know that very well. That is the only reason I supply only corp doctrine battleship on local market. Otherwise I would be tying up way too much isk in assets that don’t sell much. better idea to provide modules. Not to mention that quite a few of 1 unit sell orders are from people that mine their own minerals and do it 'cuz they want to do this.
We’re now officially 3 months out since the prophecy was foretold.
Where is the coming of the economy collapse? I wanna see the markets BURNING.
Guys, I’m starting to think OP and the countless others who were screaming their heads off about this change… might be wrong? Could it be?
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Another Eve is dying thread?
Hey guys, just checking in.
Has the market collapsed yet? OP said he did the math.
I’m looking around and it seems like the market is pretty healthy. Am I missing something? 
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yes, it’s an Heisenberg market : the more you look at it, the less precise the observation become, until you can’t notice it is actually in a crash.
I find this all amusing in a gallows humor kind of way. When I first began playing in '07 the EVE market was being used as a simulator in a lot of economics classes at the university level. However, somewhere along the way that ended. One of the reasons for that was runaway inflation with the developers pretty much at a loss as to how to deal with it. I recall they had an economics “expert” come in and do a survey of the system. He offered some suggestions, which is where we got a revision of the insurance payout system. (The payout was pegged on ore prices from four years earlier and had never been revised.) Some of you may recall.
EVE is subject to the same forces that operate in the economies of other MMOs, all of which have become ridiculous due to run away inflation making the ingame currency worthless. You can see this in the real world, as well. It’s not that things cost so much it’s that it takes more of the worthless money to equal the value of the item. In games it’s the currency faucet vs. the currency sink. Developers have to figure out a way to keep that even, but since developers aren’t economics majors, and game corporations aren’t willing to pay what an economics major would expect by salary, whomever is making whatever adjustments is at best shooting in the dark.
I have a character with all trade skills at V, all relevant diplomacy skills at V and 10 standings with Brutor Tribe in Rens. Theoretically, this character should be trading at the lowest possible expense regarding taxes and fees. However, when this arbitrary 400,000 ISK brokerage fee showed up, it made the entire process foolish. I also felt it was an unfair hit on traders, with all other players being left untouched; turning traders into an ISK sink.
My response was to stop trading. Even IF I could develop an algorythm that worked, it is still insulting on a personal level, and it’s obviously a device (though not a clever device) devised by someone with but a thin understanding of basic economics. Of course, with me and all traders of my caliber seeing the light and bailing on that as a pass time, the market won’t collapse. People who develop bots are now challenged to beat this process, as well, and many will rise to the occasion; bearing in mind that CCP has never adequately answered rumors that staff members run market bots.
Just like when scientists started announcing a problem with the climate and petroleum, the unwashed minions started clamoring “the Earth isn’t destroyed yet…it’s already tomorrow…” And, despite that over time the self same people are now solidly in the environmental camp (unless they’re taken by some mental disorder, or other). Claiming “the market ain’t collapsed yet” points to this same shallow understanding of economics. Yes, it will take time for this to solidly take hold, and when it does, there will be no fixing it.
I am of the view no developers currently working on EVE are slightly interested in dealing with this continual albatross - the EVE economy. I think it’s back burner, inbox to outbox, “don’t make me do this” with a group of people more bent on making pretty spaceships, than burdening themselves with the layers of complication which is the EVE economy.
The “average” player is happy as long as he or she arrives at the store, and what is desired is there. The reasonable cost factor is fudge-able, but will become a serious factor eventually. However, it not making economic sense to be bothered with manufacturing and trade causing a mass migration into other areas, leaving the shelves bare…should that occur the market STILL won’t have collapsed, right?
The numbers have said to me, “Quit.” And, so I have. I do other things now. There will come a day when you go in to replace all that PVP loss, and that gear just won’t be there anymore, and nobody will be taking seriously the notion of getting back into that obvious money losing activity.
TYVM if you read this. TL;lDR? Take your ISK and buy an attention span.
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I know that when posting on these forums, the risk of trolls and bad-faith arguments drowning out any coherent discussion is high. But, one tries.
The 2nd full round of forced broker-fee taxation is coming in a couple of weeks. The 90-day max trade posting cycle means that for some of those that don’t spreadsheet out their market plans for the long term, the economic pain and severe profit loss doesn’t get realized right away.
But a 2nd round of getting hit like a truck by those broker fees, just to keep a slow moving item from dropping off of the market and having to pay the full listing fee, that 2nd round isn’t going to feel any better than the first did. We’ll see what the result is in the manufacturing sector.
Having a longer than 5 minute cooldown period between updating prices wouldn’t have been a poor thing in my view. If the claim to be ‘fighting bots’ was in good faith, then that would have been an ok move.
The restriction to 4 significant digits on price changes wasn’t a terrible one. I wasn’t really a .01 isk ‘isker’ anyway. My price moves were already close to the 4 significant digit realm.
The broker fee change was buried deeply in the text of the patch notes. The feeling is that if CCP wasn’t going to get a major backlash from not including it at all, and just sneaking the change in, they would have done so. That gives the feeling that the move wasn’t ‘to fight bots’ or any kind of ‘for the players’ change at all.
My feeling is this: Given that Pearl Abyss undoubtedly has influence at CCP, and that PA’s major game is micro-transaction heavy, that hobbling the market is a step toward a more micro-transaction heavy game. Some players may go along with it, I suppose. Perhaps more than in 2011, with Incarna-gate’s player revolt, when CCP tried to push some questionable micro-transaction changes onto the scene, along with other issues.
But this kind of thing takes competent planning. CCP’s ability to execute such planning is not something I have confidence in. One can see many examples of changes that worked out very poorly for players and the CCP-player relationship. Just look at the abandoned-structure debacle. Many EVE players cycle through taking breaks from the game, and then resubscribing and back again. One of the things that was supposed to happen is that players were to get notices that their structure had entered the abandoned state, giving them 7 days to correct the issue before the structure became a loot pinata with no asset safety.
From the complaints, many players never received any kind of notice, coming back from their EVE break to find everything gone. I don’t know how the GMs have been handling those complaints. I also don’t know if folks are now all getting proper notices or not, as I’d guess folks will still want to take breaks without losing everything as a consequence. But that change should have been tested more thoroughly. It wasn’t, and for those that have been in this game for a decade or more, the damage that this issue has dealt to the CCP - player relationship is pretty apparent. That kind of thing can push beyond even what the weird bittervet relationship would allow.
So as to whether CCP will react in time to coming shortages as the market providers take more of these broker fee blows every 90 days, who knows? I can see the goal being to milk the EVE player of more money, and also see the execution of steps toward that goal being badly done.
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lol…for every up there’s a down, for every down there’s an up and it all evens out somehow. The naivete is touching…really. All you have to do is “make the right decision.” Eventually, the “right decision” becomes seeing things in purely numerical terms with illusions like “quality of life” safely buried in the deep subconscious, like the corporate mentality dictates; and Winston loved Big Brother.
Shows you how indoctrinated the denizens
of capitalism have become.
Everything that can possibly happen will happen eventually; in the end the doom-sayers will be right. Just be patient.
That’s called pragmatism (take actions based on their effect).
It’s very close to nihilism (there is no absolute morale).
Obviously, hiding the complexity of a system between an artificial dichotomy (what is good/bad for your wallet) is not healthy in the long term (because it exacerbates the errors in your model). That’s why capitalism is seen as a devil, in that it negates the morals of the society it gets in. The funny part is that nihilism (there is no knowledge that you can acquire, only anecdotes) in that case goes against pragmatism which requires knowledge about the causes and effects (yeah, correlation is not causation).
But that’s just a video game. It’s totally fine to be the bad guy in Eve.
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That isn’t what it is, however. It’s just what those involved in the practice have come to call it, so as to justify it when being confronted with all the losses it entails. You see, you’re even extending this indoctrination to rewriting the dictionary, “What are you going to believe your lyin’ eyes, or me?”
It’s not even a settled issue if it is in actuality “totally fine to be the bad guy…” in any venue. The assertion that behavior can be divorced from psychology by accepting a premise is strongly disputed, and a demonstrably shaky assertion to make. Unless, of course, you ask someone who’s doing it.
The real question is: Is an economy in place to make a few individuals wealthy beyond anyone’s wildest dreams of avarice, or is it a tool to be used in aid of the advancement of the population as a whole? It’s obvious from which corners which response will arise. However, there is not two answers to the same question…but then I can quote Harry S Truman on economists: “If you lay each economist end to end they point in every direction.”
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That’s literally what it is. I told you about nihilism, which is a different thing.