Note from retired criminal

(Galaxy Pig) #21

wants canflipping back
no desire to fight miners

Go home, Mo. You’re drunk.

(Bjorn Tyrson) #22

you forgot “doesn’t want to fight in low-sec”

Seriously OP, given your list of criteria your options are pretty much station duels, and RvB (if they are still around)

(Vol Arm'OOO) #23

What ccp doesnt seem to understand is that their pve is boring. How long can someone mine a field of rocks or shoot a bunch of red x’s without their eyes bleeding? Crime was necessary to make pve interesting. CCP has been limiting player interaction and driving crime out of the game for several years. The numbers tell the story - we are down to 2006 levels of concurrent users - People are not logging in for some reason and IMO I strongly suspect that its because CCP has been pushing a softer version of eve without understanding that a softer eve is a boring eve.

(Vol Arm'OOO) #24

Spot on. Right now, there is no new player friendly pvp. Sure you can go into lowsec or null, but how fun is it to get repeatedly blasted over and over again? With can flipping, a new player could get a limited form of pvp against people who were not pvp ready. It wasnt ideal, but it worked.

(Bjorn Tyrson) #25

New player friendly pvp exists
RvB for HS and FW for LS. both groups are VERY happy to have new and alpha players join them.

I believe what you are looking for is called ganking, so lets add code to the list of new player and alpha friendly “pvp”

(Mobadder Thworst) #26

I’m not sure when you started playing, but I think you lack the frame of reference for what I’m talking about.

Can flipping was balanced by can baiting. Can baiters wanted fights. In all, flippers, baiters, and war Deccers spent loads of time shooting each other. Yes, we picked fights with anyone who caught our eye. That was how we played the game.

Yes, I’ll shoot just about anyone… Miners, missions, null players, griefers… but I do enjoy a challenge.

I’ve been playing since 09. I’ve lived in low and null. I’ve spent time in several of the major merc groups as well as RVB. I was a Ceo in the Orphanage when it was young. I liked all of those things some, but they all lacked the magic of high-sec criminal play.

There is something inspired about a fight where there is a real grudge that can’t be replaced with meaninglessly blasting flashies anywhere else in the game. i miss it.

I’m confident in the value of the point I’m making, even if you disagree.

If you don’t choose to hear what I’m saying, that’s ok.

(Mobadder Thworst) #27

Frequently, perhaps.

However, the casual nature of my game centered around fighting the flippers and baiters of high sec… who used to be common. Other griefer corps used to come from systems around for small gang fights… and most of my fights (back in the heyday) were on station a because that’s where all the baiting was.

I used to use a shield rep boat to disrupt other people’s fights as a common method of picking fights.

Miners weren’t a big part of the equation, but I’d happily shoot a few in the name of inclusion on a slow days.

There are no more flippers or baiters or small griefer corps. War decs cost so much that you have to pve to afford them.

That leaves me with … miners or retirement. I’ve dabbled in both, but currently I’m retired.

(Bjorn Tyrson) #28

I’ve been playing since 07, and can baiting was NEVER as common as can flipping was. and you can can bait just as easily now as you ever could. can flipping stopped because ccp decided that not ALL mining barges had to be wet paper bags in order to be balanced and gave them some ability to fight back. as well as more options for efficient mining besides just can mining.

fewer people can mining + some of the targets having more teeth = less can thieves. you can still do it though

Nothing stops you from warping into a belt, stealing from their can and hoping they are dumb enough to attack.
nothing is stopping you from parking a venture in a belt and starting up a can in order to try and bait out a thief.
Nothing stops you from hanging out around a station with a can trying to bait a fight.

all you are doing is complaining about one, very narrow form of gameplay and a very specific type of target you want to fight that doesn’t exist anymore.
trying to pretty up the fact that you only want to fight against. "people who were not pvp ready"doesn’t change the fact that its the lowest form of pvp, and if after 8 years you can’t cut it in LS without getting “repeatedly blasted over and over again” then maybe its you who has gotten soft not the game.

fun fact, there are several large wardeccing corps that you could join to hunt wartargets till your hearts content. in fact on further thought this seems to be where you are most likely to get the helpless targets you seem to want. then you don’t need to worry about fronting the rather negligible cost of the wardec yourself.

(Mobadder Thworst) #29

I get the idea that you wouldn’t know how common or uncommmon any given style of high-sec PvP is. I’m guessing that’s not really your thing.

Clearly baiting can’t work because nobody will ever actually arrive to flip my can. I flipped some cans last time I played, which you seem to hate. I’d guess that means I’m an effective villain?

Let me draw you another analogy of why I think we need can flipping back…

There use to be an ecosystem. It has lots of levels and you could fight all of them. There were low level pvp’ers targeting noobs, then higher levels targeting them, then another level up targeting them… on and on until you reached whatever merc corp was at the top of the pile with the most and the biggest.

Now highsec is more like ranch hands and cattle. The mercs are ranch hands, casually slaughtering cattle from the relative security of the blue donut. The rest of high sec is just cattle. Even as skilled as I am, I can’t effectively fight those merc corps solo (no alts, especially given the state of T3s).

I liked when there were PvP players outside the merc alliances. I liked it when there were casual fights. I liked cheap wardecs for hunting (back when hunting was a thing).

Your hatred for flipping coincides with your ignorance of it.

Despite attacking me repeatedly, you have yet to provide a good counter to my argument that today’s Eve is poorer for the loss of high-sec criminals.

I think we can agree that the population of the high-sec criminal is down by an enormous factor? What do you think? Good or bad?

(Hiasa Kite) #30

That’s why I often refer new players looking for a way into the game to CODE. What better way to learn some survival techniques, both as a carebear and no-good pirate scum than shooting some non-compliants in HiSec?

(March rabbit) #31

Just curious: how would you get it back? If you change mechanics to previous state people will not bait the bait out of blue. Mercs and baiters did their job well: killed all will to resist in what you called “cattle”.

What’s your plan?

(Vol Arm'OOO) #32

Can flipping didn’t stop bc of ccp making barges tougher - less like wet paper bags. Rather it stopped because of the safety switch changes and the increase in barge cargo holds.

Also didn’t rvb cease existing? And sure fw allows alphas in but it is hardly newbee Pvp.

When I first started playing eve I had heard it was hardcore pvp but I looked around and couldn’t find any action at all. It was all fly here click orbit and shoot the red x’s. I couldn’t understand the attraction. After awhile I did some research and joined a Corp that did war decs. We still got no action since the targets all docked up. Some more research lead me to the buy 100 Rifter plan and lose them in lowsec. That didn’t seem any fun - being always on the short end of the stick. Finally I found can flipping and it was great. It wasn’t ganking because can flipping was 100% consensual. If u didn’t want to fight u didn’t have to. More importantly my targets were usually just like me - inexperienced at pvp - so when they did fight it made for great action. Ofc sometimes I was baited out and got pwned but that was all part of the fun. You never knew what you were getting into. Can flipping was an entry way into pvp for new players. It’s a shame ccp killed it.

(Vol Arm'OOO) #33

Reduce barge holds. Easy.

(Mobadder Thworst) #34
  1. bring back the old aggro mechanics… universal aggro for theft is enough to outright prevent theft. We need thieves to give all you white knights an enemy. Maybe leave some offenses with universal aggro, but at least give us jet cans back, it was the foundation of high-sec conflict at the small team level.
    2)reduce cargo hold sizes such that jet cans are substantially valuable as a technique. Make a person choose between lower payout with higher safety and higher payout with lower safety. Remember, the decision to shoot a flipper is, fundamentally, consent.
  2. Repeal the PvP bans in the tutorial systems. Flipping and baiting is consentual and, in these systems, serves as its own tutorial. Noobs need to see people fighting and feel like the fight is not that far away. It needs to feel dangerous and chaotic to be what they expect. Loads of empty space without conflict is boring.

You have to remember, noobs are watching us. If we don’t appear to be doing something fun, they will just go play something else.

Flipping leads to baiting, which leads to fights on station, which leads to smack in local chat, which leads to fleet warfare, which leads to fun. All of that adds up to a big show in local. Noobs need to see people fighting, drama, action, and people having fun. Right now, they see nothing because that’s what is going on in the systems they will visit before they quit.

Added bonuses: flipping is more fun than ganking. Bringing flipping back would probably not dissolve code, but it would definitely downsize it.

Also, the blue donut would downsize. Being part of the large merc corps gets really monotonous… you hardly ever even know who you shot until you see the kill mail… and the occasional real fight tends to be pretty imbalanced. I think war dec costs need to drop too to really rebalance it, but I bet the merc alliances would lose a bunch of members who would just go back to flipping.

(Noragen Neirfallas) #35

Nothing stops Jet can mining now other than it’s risk/reward is not balanced. It’s not that people wouldn’t steal it’s there are no cans to steal from. Also very few people agress suspects DESPITE how the odds are stacked against the suspect. Can flipping wouldn’t fix this

(Mobadder Thworst) #36

Nothing is stopping me besides imbalanced risk and enormous ore holds. I can still do it and get kills, but now the work load is much higher and it’s really hard to actually get a fight.

Oh yeah, and after I actually do all that work, the fight will be against someone who doesn’t know PvP at all. Flippers were great for fighting because most were very competent solo players.

However, these mechanics issues are absolute showstoppers for people who would enter PvP in this fashion. We need the entire ecosystem of piracy this mechanic grows. It’s not that I want to fight miners, but there is literally nobody left besides them to fight.

These people won’t agress because they’re so far removed from PvP.

If one of the large blanket war-dec groups hasn’t found them, they have probably never witnessed PvP. Even if they experienced that, they probably stayed docked for a week.

Of course they’re hesitant to engage. We need to introduce mechanics that make it common again. That will dissolve the mystery around it and let everyone open fire again.

(March rabbit) #37

Except for promise of “fun” i haven’t seen anything in balance to “make a person choose between lower payout with higher safety and higher payout with lower safety”. What actually you offer in exchange?

“Fun” you describe is very one-sided. Person who got baited and was killed lost his load of ore, his ship and if he is bad at mechanics (and we assume you will only catch those) will have lost his pod with expensive mining-related implants. “Fun” all around.

For me it looks more like result will be similar to freighter ganking: dumb/stupid people will get killed and leave. Smart ones will just include cost of stolen ore into profit calculation and ignore flippers. No actual “fights, smack, etc…” will appear out of nothing. As i said already" you guys made a good job killing all will to resist of what you have called “cattle”.

I might be wrong for sure.

(Vol Arm'OOO) #38

Very few people agress suspects now because of the safety. Just imagine - you are mad because someone just stole your can so you target them and try to shoot only to be told that you cant because your safety says “no.” So then you start thinking and realize that you will probably die anyway, so you don’t bother to reset your safety, and then miss the opportunity. Now you may be thinking that these are usually one sided encounters, and you would be right. The suspect baiter is prepared for pvp while the target usually isnt. But, in my experience being killed early in your career is good for a player - it gets you thinking of pvp instead of pve and challenges you to figure out ways to get back at the player that killed you. In fact, I recall that CCP had some statistics that supported the idea that if a player was ganked earlier they were more likely to hang around in the game.

(Mobadder Thworst) #39

If you never want to lose to a flipper, all you have to do is opt out of jet can mining.

If you do opt in, and don’t want to fight… all you have to do is not shoot.

There is no reason for anyone to be tricked, teach them in the tutorial.

I don’t actually want to shoot noobs in ventures… but I need the community back that does that because that’s who I like to shoot.

You guys are so focused on the injustice of noob getting killed (which I would argue is engaging on a level far above mining) that you are missing the fact that you have decimated the rest of the food chain.

Eve is dying of its own safety.

(March rabbit) #40

Opportunity to lose your ship i guess? :thinking:

Well… For my 7 years in the game i haven’t seen one non-prepared attack. The only possibility is when defender “outsmart” attacker (outblob or something like that). So yes, that’s the way i see it.

What if i already missed this opportunity? I’m years into the game, sitting in high-sec, mining, missioning, etc… Never lost a ship and now if i play stupid and lose i lose a lot. What YOU offer me coupled with increased risk “for the greater good”?

And yes, that “statistics”… What i remember about it was couple slides with numbers which can be interpreted the way you want to turn them. For years since that FanFest people discussing it and still it’s unclear if you can believe to their conclusion or not.