Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

It seems like it’s mostly because the Caldari at that time hadn’t yet come to resent it enough. I mean, the Gallente at that time were literally people who dropped in from the sky. There’s bound to be some serious awe there, and so what if their main mission was called the “Cultural Deliverance Society”? … The Raata Empire had fallen recently enough that many Caldari may have felt like they could really use some delivering.

Most of the stubbornness I see in Caldari society, from the resistance to allowing any mixing between cultures to the determination not to meddle more than necessary with other cultures they encounter to the resistance to the idea that they’re responsible for anybody’s fate but their own, as a people-- even the willful rejection of aesthetics as a consideration in engineering-- seems like a reaction to prolonged contact with Gallente culture.

There’s no reason to have any of those qualities when you’re the only ones around. But, throw in a few centuries of perceived slights, abuses, and well-intentioned meddling, and …

… eventually the shine on those star people wears off. And through a haze of anger, everything looks ugly.

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There has always existed differences in perspective between Caldari and Gallente.

Where the Gallente saw ‘Cultural Deliverance’; Caldari saw a paternalistic imperialism.

Where Gallente saw a need to escape overpopulation by settling on Caldari; Caldari saw colonization by foreigners.

Where Gallente saw secret colonies; Caldari saw the only the means to escape foreign interference.

Where Gallente saw the need for democracy; Caldari saw only foreign interventionism.

Where Gallente saw a Federation; Caldari saw a tool for control and oppression.

A war was fought over these differences in perspective, and it is still being fought to this day. The peace that existed prior was always tenuous at best, for it was the peace of separation and distance between two societies so opposite in culture and outlook among the stars. At least, I don’t think the Great Families and people of the Raata successor states which formed what are now our Megacorporations viewed the Gallente as anything but to be kept at a distance, but at least that distance kept the peace.

Historically speaking, and at present I think it’s an open question as to whether or not the Gallente desire peace with Caldari, or if it’s even possible to return to some form of status quo ante prior to the formation of the Federation where a peace, however tenuous, existed.

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And attempt to stunt the progress by enforcing inefficient archaic and barbaric management system.

I can say that if we had the colonies back then before forming of the Federation, we wouldn’t be forced to sign this atrocious charter at all. The creation of that Federation was only attempt to put all other nations under Gallente heel.
And this is why the Federation must be destroyed.

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I do not believe we were forced to sign the Federal charter. We were betrayed and stabbed in the back by ‘leaders’ who would have rather preferred to live in submission to the Gallente out of cowardice and collusion in order to protect their own interests. They never consulted the CEO and leaders of the Okusaika who defended and preserved the Caldari traditions and way of life under the Great Families of the Homeworld for centuries.

The colonies were a reasonable response to ensure Caldari independence and interests were maintained away from so-called Leaders who claimed they represented the Caldari people but were nothing more than traitors to those they claimed to serve. It has always been the method of Imperialists to subvert and install collaborators as the compliant hand to do their bidding, and in this the Gallente are no different to every colonizer throughout history in regards to the Caldari people.

The Federal charter was not worth the paper it was printed on, so long as it was written by the hand of Caldari marionettes whose strings were pulled by the hands of foreign masters in the Gallente.

I am not saying about physical coercion, and don’t even have data to claim they were marionettes.

What I understand as being forced is the situation we were found in. A single planet inside systems that were under gallente control. Our enterprises were centered all on our ancestral home - Caldari Prime, and from that we were trading from everyone around. Back then trading agreements were not the best, but acceptable and allowed us to develop and stay in contact with other civilizations, getting access to technological advances that we could trade for and markets. That worked just fine, until… until they decided to create the Federation.

And I am almost certain that leaders of Okusaika were actually standig for joining the Federation, just because if they didn’t… it would mean our world would be practically cut out from the rest of the worlds, being a single planet surrounded by the Federal space, which simply could quarantine us, and that would lead into deep technological stagnation in comparison to other nations, not speaking that building colonies would become practically impossible - the Federation would not simply let our ships out.

So, yes, the creation of that Federation forced our participation in it.

And those gallente speakers that were claiming that joining the Federation was purely voluntary acts just make fools out of themselves - just remember how it reacted when we left it: they went war on us. That’s not what happens when you leave a voluntary union. Voluntary union members would just say: “Oh, well, pity. Thanks for all your support earlier and work we did together, and pity we couldn’t do more for you to keep you with us. Have a good journey alone, maybe you’ll find what you seek!” And what was Federation reaction: “No, you can’t leave! You are ours now! TO ARMS!!!”

And this is why the Federation must be destroyed.

Commander Kim,

There were existing Caldari colonies in Essence, Verge Vendor, and Sinq Laison during the secession:

Before long, the State was able to secure previously Caldari colonies within Essence and Verge Vendor. The region of Sinq Laison meanwhile, was a hodgepodge of Gallente and Caldari states and colonies that the latter had started to resecure…

Source

Apparently there still are.

Also, apparently the Caldari communities still in the Federation are by a lot of measures truer to the historical character and traditions of the Caldari people than the State is. It’s one of those things that gives me pause: if the State’s fears about the Federation are valid, shouldn’t those communities be losing their identity and disappearing?

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I would say both sides of the divide see themselves as legitimately Caldari, and the other one the traitors.

A Caldari Megacorporation is a cultural compromise on the reality we cannot truly return to the ways of old like the tribes of the Kaalakiota Peaks and also have the economic and military strength to have a place in the cluster, equal to others.

As to whether or not that is culturally illegitimate is a matter of perspective.

That’s actually even worse. Back then again majority of our enterprises were centered in Caldari Prime and the separate colonies would simply die out.

But now, thinking about it… we really must fight for the Essence and Verge Vendor areas, since these were Caldari colonies illegally expropriated by Gallente oppressors.

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Yes. However, I will always consider those who collaborated to sign the Federation into reality as traitors to our people regardless of their rationale or reasons.

Back then we didn’t know the Federation will turn out itself as such a monstrocity. It’s easy to blame them now, knowing gallente are like that with all that we have seen. But how would they know?

What they did know is that Gallenteans were pretty much shameless indecent amoral people. And them creating this Federation was a question of either signing it or being isolated. It also meant that in order to break the isolation we would have to go war against the Federation and become aggressors. All other nations would go against us instead of supporting us against the Gallenteans. And without proper infrastructure we would have lost that war and died out under unending gallente bombings.

Later we had both infrastructure to fight and we didn’t start the war - we simply left the Federation. Gallente became agressors and shown their true face to whole cluster. People of many nationalities rebelled against them back then and still consider they’re wrong now. And I guess there are so many such people in the Federation that Gallente had to create “Black Eagles” to silence them, while pretending to give them “freedom of speech”.

And this is also why the Federation must be destroyed.

With respect, Commander, you and Gesakaarin-haan overlook that Federation signatories were not unanimous in their hostility to the Caldari.

With respect, Commander, from official histories:

The Caldari had those colonies, it seems, as early as five centuries before the formation of the Federation.

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The Great Families such as the Osmon of Hyasyoda and corporate leaders such as CEO Mathias Sobaseki of Kaalakiota knew what a monstrosity the Federation would become – this is why they began the colonization programs of what is now the State. It is only due to their wisdom and foresight that we as a people were saved from the depredations of the Gallente. That the Caldari traditions of duty, obedience, and discipline were preserved under corporate rule that permits the human spirit to flourish under the enlightened rule of our leaders and a meritocratic hierarchy in which everyone has their place to serve that which is greater than themselves.

It was through the foresight of such ancestors, that we, the sons and daughters of Raata regained the strength and power to break the chains of foreign domination.

This is compared to the treasonous ‘democratic’ leaders who signed the Federal charter out of fear and cowardice or venal self-interest.

I never mentioned the Intaki, nor hostility towards Caldari.

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So this refers only to ethnic Caldari and not anyone in those regions who was employed by what would, one day, become State enterprises?

This post is also pretty clear to me in its argument to illustrate Federation hostility.

It was referring to ethnic Caldari collaborators with the Gallente, specific to the signing of the Federal charter.

Caldari Enterprises could not sign the Federal charter, not being democratic states, so it would seem to be a moot point.

It was designed to illustrate the differences in historical perspectives.

If I wanted to point out Federation hostility, I would have pointed to the bombings of Home and the Duvalier regime.

Fair enough, but I’m referring to non-ethnic Caldari individuals who were contributors to Caldari enterprises before the war, irrespective of which side of the front they found themselves thereafter.

I appreciate the clarification.

In my view, non-ethnic Caldari who contribute to Caldari enterprises in service to the State are Caldari. My use of ethnic Caldari in reference to the signing of the Federal charter felt correct, because those states which signed it were predominantly from Caldari Prime.

It has nothing to do with my personal belief that being Caldari is defined by service to the collective good, and not genetics. We cannot decide how we are born, but we can always decide how we may serve.

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… I … don’t know about that, Gesakaarin-haan.

From what I’ve read, it seems as though the Gallente barely want to admit there are still Caldari living in the Federation anywhere but Caldari Prime. Mentioning in polite Federal company that the Caldari are still technically a Federal member nation is apparently (or was recently) kind of a good way to get glared at and cause an uncomfortable silence. It’s a troublesome truth to them.

That seems to suggest that the “Raata” Caldari aren’t exactly impassioned Federal partisans. But I think they’re too small overall to have a big effect on Federal politics, so probably it really suits everyone if they mostly just keep to themselves and stay out of it all.

I can’t think of anything very much more Caldari than a community keeping to itself, living as it believes it should, and asking nobody’s opinion about whether it’s doing it right or not.

Those who went against us were probably simply coerced by gallenteans to do so.