Proposed Capitol Ship Changes

[Yzzie_Sreve]

Let me start off by saying that I am nowhere near an expert on Null-sec or Capital Ships. The last time I was in a Carrier it was loaded with 15 Sentries for ratting and had to either be cloaked and logged off in space or stored at a POS.

I know there will be 100+ replies about how Capital Ships aren’t worth the time / ISK, that people should learn to fly Sub-Caps, that they will have more fun with sub-caps, etc. but the bottom line is that it takes quite a while in EvE to realize those things as a new player and without a goal, people won’t stick around long enough to learn.

I can say that having played EvE on and off since 2009 that Capital Ships were a huge carrot at the end of the stick for me for a long time. I, like a lot of people, saw those ships as Eve’s “end game”. Don’t forget that the majority of new people coming from other MMOs are use to a different set of “leveling” mechanics. The more time you invest the faster you developed your character. Eve’s real time based skill leveling is already difficult for some people to adjust to. So when you log in as a new player and see those ships on the far right of the ship tree, it makes it feel like training for a year + might actually be worth it.

Now on to the actual topic.

In my opinion, the new changes to industry (driving the price of Capital Ship Production through the roof) is not going to resolve the issues with Capital Ships (or if it eventually does it will take years.) Here are a couple of reasons why I think production / initial cost isn’t the answer.

1.) The massive cost is just going to cause a new player to see those ships on the Ship Tree then look at their cost on the market / contracts and just give up on ever piloting one. It is basically saying that unless you are already established in game then the “perceived” endgame (see my statement above) is out of reach for you. It won’t even promote the buying of PLEX. I can see a newer player spending $50 to $100 on PLEX to buy a 1.5B ISK ship but how many newer players are going to PLEX a 5B Carrier?

2.) There are already a ton of these ships in game. Price is not a barrier for the massive Null-Sec Blocs or Mega Rich. These groups will still be able to produce and field these ships no matter how much they cost. The only thing this is going to do is to increase the power gap between the small corps / alliances and the massive Null-sec Blocs.

Instead of trying to price these ships out of existence why not instead make them cost ISK to actually own and operate? I have a couple of suggestions on how this could be accomplished.

1.) Storage

My suggestion is that CCP add a module that needs to be installed into a structure in order for a Capital Ship to be docked there. These would come in various sizes to accommodate different sized ships.

These modules require CPU and Power Grid just like any other module. This not only forces the structure to sacrifice other modules in order to dock Capital Ships but also limits the number that could be docked / stored at a single station. Maybe the ships could also continue to remain visible outside the station connected to a docking bay allowing anyone to see what Capital ships were docked there.

As an ISK sink CCP could require that each of these modules increase the fuel consumption of the structure while online. To prevent these from just being removed / installed only when a ship was going to be docked, give them a timer to put on line / off line.

This would allow smaller corps / alliances to still maintain a (small) Capital Fleet while restricting the number of Capital Ships the larger Alliances could stockpile ISK free.

A rental cost could be added to each docking bay (like with corporation offices but with daily, monthly cost) that is payable to the structure owner just like with reprocessing. You may even begin to see corporations / players installing structures with these docking bays in systems and charging a fee to dock there.

I realize that the ships could still be logged off in space but that requires an Omega Alt for every ship owned and stored this way (More accounts = more $$ for CCP).

2.) Operating Cost

Carriers / Supers - Could require fuel when used (much like a Dred does while in siege). The mechanic is already there. When Fighters return and refuel / rearm they would actually consume fuel from the Carrier’s fuel bay.

If CCP wanted to take this one step further, modify fighters to require that ammunition be consumed by fighters much like the missiles, Torpedoes, & Bombs are now but with actual munitions. Maybe add an Ammunition Bay for the storage and new munitions just for fighters.

Dreds - Already incur a cost while in siege as well as consuming ammo.

Titans - I am open to suggestions here as I have ZERO experience with Titans.

Anyway, just some ideas I had. Feel free to flame away.

[Cel_ah_Vee]

In b4

CapitAL ships!!

On to your points… Your suggestions have already been made in numerous threads.
I agree that capital ships should require operating cost and a special module for parking those ships in POS.
I also see that the big corporations can and will continue to be able to afford and build capital ships.
Unfortunately for those ideas, CCP seems to disagree and CCP does whatever they want.
Someday maybe they will decide to implement the ideas in your O.P but I don’t see that anywhere on the horizon.
That said, I don’t give a good goddamn about those huge expensive ships and never have. The real fun for me doesn’t go beyond cruisers.
Fly blind
o7

[Adunh_Slavy]

@Yzzie_Sreve

As an ISK sink CCP could require that each of these modules increase the fuel consumption of the structure while online.

I only wish to comment on this one tiny bit.

IMO, Eve does not need more ISK sinks, it needs more consumption of ‘consumables’ such as Ice, PI, mins, etc. All the additional time spent collecting these resources will mean time not spent generating ISK.

[Cel_ah_Vee]

@Adunh_Slavy

IMO, Eve does not need more ISK sinks, it needs more consumption of ‘consumables’ such as Ice, PI, mins, etc. All the additional time spent collecting these resources will mean time not spent generating ISK.

I agree. EVE is getting to be more of a waste of time than a game.
Time Sink.

[hellokittyonline]

I’m sure everyone would love to afk PvE in a capital ship but the fact of the matter is that capital ships RUIN swaths of PvP content.

I get that from a PvEers point of view these changes are nothing but bad but this is not a PvE game, Null sec isnt supposed to be a carebear wonderland.

You’ve just gotta accept that there is more to this game than solo ratting and we should not be listening to ANY solo PvEer feedback as it is far too disconnected from the greater scope of the game to be of any use. This is a multiplayer PvP MMO meaning CCP will (as they should) consider the effects on multiplayer PvP FIRST and FOREMOST. Especially with changes to Null sec (which is supposed to be the most dangerous area of the game but is currently a carebear wonderland).

[Konchita]

@Yzzie_Sreve

Let me start off by saying that I am nowhere near an expert on Null-sec or Capital Ships.

Thanks for the warning.
Stopped reading after this.

[Solonius_Rex]

Wow, lots of things to unpackage here.

@Yzzie_Sreve

1.) The massive cost is just going to cause a new player to see those ships on the Ship Tree then look at their cost on the market / contracts and just give up on ever piloting one. It is basically saying that unless you are already established in game then the “perceived” endgame (see my statement above) is out of reach for you. It won’t even promote the buying of PLEX. I can see a newer player spending $50 to $100 on PLEX to buy a 1.5B ISK ship but how many newer players are going to PLEX a 5B Carrier?

Okay. First off, you shouldnt be flying a capital ship without the support of a good corp. New players should not be looking at capitals as end-game content, nor should they be trying to fly or train towards it. So if new players give up on ever trying to fly one, it doesnt make any difference, because they shouldnt be trying to in the first place.

Secondly, 500 plex, which is like 15 bucks, gets you two billion isk.

If you are purchasing 50 to 100 dollars on plex, thats easily 7-14 billion isk, which is more than enough for a 5 billion isk carrier.

But you should never try to plex your way into a ship, because its stupid. All ships are disposable, and you should fly them with the expectation of losing them. If you spent 100 dollars to buy plex and fly a 5 billion isk ship, you cant afford to lose it, so you shouldnt fly it. Only through actual, passive cumulation of isk where you are comfortable to be able to make it back, should you fly a cap, and by then you will have learned the game well enough that you will know if you really need a cap or not.

@Yzzie_Sreve

2.) There are already a ton of these ships in game. Price is not a barrier for the massive Null-Sec Blocs or Mega Rich. These groups will still be able to produce and field these ships no matter how much they cost. The only thing this is going to do is to increase the power gap between the small corps / alliances and the massive Null-sec Blocs.

Small corps and alliances are already allied with larger alliances. Thats what a coalition is. And, as we saw with world war bee, small coalitions can band up and destroy and decimate larger ones.

The problem with your argument here, is that even if we made Caps cost only 1 isk to produce, larger alliances will still have the advantage because they would be able to pump out more capitals. No matter how you look at it, there is always an advantage to larger groups that have more money. Its a useless argument to make.

@Yzzie_Sreve

These modules require CPU and Power Grid just like any other module. This not only forces the structure to sacrifice other modules in order to dock Capital Ships but also limits the number that could be docked / stored at a single station. Maybe the ships could also continue to remain visible outside the station connected to a docking bay allowing anyone to see what Capital ships were docked there.

We sorta kinda have those already, and theyre called keepstars. The problem here, is that regular capships arent really a problem. Its the Supers that are the main problem. And keepstars already have higher costs that do exactly what youre saying they should.

@Yzzie_Sreve

Carriers / Supers - Could require fuel when used (much like a Dred does while in siege). The mechanic is already there. When Fighters return and refuel / rearm they would actually consume fuel from the Carrier’s fuel bay.

If CCP wanted to take this one step further, modify fighters to require that ammunition be consumed by fighters much like the missiles, Torpedoes, & Bombs are now but with actual munitions. Maybe add an Ammunition Bay for the storage and new munitions just for fighters.

How do any of your suggestions make it easier for smaller groups but harder for larger ones, that already have tons of ISK?

It seems as though larger corporations and alliances would be freely able to absorb this cost, while smaller corps would be subject to these costs irrespective of how large their group was.

My view with capitals is that we should have better sub-capital counters to them, and not make them more expensive, which is what youre trying to do. Your solutions are no different from CCP; make capitals be more expensive. Thats what CCP is proposing, and what you are proposing as well.

Youre not changing anything here.

[Aahz_If]

I would like to undock in a capital ship but I really wouldn’t know what to do with it.
As to your suggestions, I don’t yet know enough about the game to say if I liked them or not.
Reading the other answers tells me that I’m not supposed to have one so I don’t think it’s useful for me to worry about any of it.