I use it to collect intel and draft up reports on enemies in a certain region.
1 Like
Wow, the forums are even saltier than normal when something, anything, gets announced!
I’ve tried the current abyssal PvP arena, it was alright, but if you don’t bling the hell out of your ship you won’t have much chance at winning. The meta for these events will constantly change, unlike the current abyssal PvP which is very stale.
Setting easily obtainable ship restrictions for a LIMITED time event seems fine. A series of tournaments that are accessible to all.
The Alliance Tournament is/was great but participating in it was very very limited.
What will these pilots do when there isn’t an event running? Maybe they’ll go look for more PvP in non-instanced places.
1 Like
This circles back to my original point. Your replay value has nothing to do with the sandbox and everything to do with a leaderboard mechanic.
There’s nothing wrong with that, people like what they like.
There IS something wrong with people complaining that arenas will somehow kill the sandbox when so much of the sandbox is already shaped BY said leaderboard mechanics.
Personally, I don’t give a ■■■■ about leaderboards. I play sandbox games for loot and generally kill people for loot. Every PvP decision I’ve ever made in EVE comes down to isk lost versus gained. I probably won’t use these filaments because I am not now and have never been really interested in how much better at PvP I am than the people I’m shooting at. I’d prefer it if they were all zero tank AFK t1 haulers with 5b in implants in them. I’m just being honest here.
I don’t have a problem with instanced arenas because they exist FOR people like you that just want to go out and fight over leaderboards. You can get more fights against more opponents and you know that every single fight is 100% committed to somebody’s spaceship exploding.
I think that’s awesome for people that care more about measures of skill than ISK destroyed or gained.
You and me both 
I’m assuming we both engage in this activity specifically to better prepare to lose less ships and generally engineer more favorable engagements right?
My point here is you wouldn’t have that tool at your disposal if there wasn’t any data on it, and it wouldn’t have any data on it (and it wouldn’t exist at all) if people didn’t want to flex KMs in the first place.
In Soviet Russia, WoW goes back to YOU
1 Like
i think most people in eve are cowards , most fights are 10v1 , but I’m at the end of that stick , I’m the one getting ganked , and them , one guy with no kills or losses come to give a lesson on why eve pvp suck, how its unfair , etc…not you, all i can say is, I’m a solo pilot , i killed more than i died against all odds ,500 mofos looked at dead in the face and saw me, don’t be soft , its fun
hmph, thats what Lucas Arts said about Star Wars Galaxy…wonder where that game went to?
1 Like
I’ll be vetoing all the points I see that I do not think are legit. The points I like I clicked the heart button.
Now, imagine what that friend would think if Lasker didn’t get stream sniped and got 0 fights for eternity. They would probably think the game is boring.
Yes, so use alts permadocked in Lowsec FW places (preferably not in a militia). This way, it costs time if you die, which is important because people PVP in 10 mil cheap ships so isk (and time to generate that isk) doesn’t matter.
How did you learn about EvE? Personally I was clueless, then I read every single EvE uni page and went off into lowsec to earn isk and get shot. I escaped a scram without knowing what a scram was. People are always learning, even as advanced players, and you can see this by how many players are clueless about jump timers (and new mechanics), so we should develop new players to learn by themselves. The tutorial is trash and the career agents are boring, but fix the tutorial, and let it point to lowsec or nullsec, or the epic arc, or other agents.
Whatever Zhalyd said. There are no spies, no cheating, no scamming, no ganging up, no keyboard spamming, and probably no GFs (this is poetic because they probably don’t have a local channel, and people are too bored and the fights are too boring to GF. The GF is more like a “thank you for bringing me this fight”. You don’t see chivalry (or GFs) in CSGO. (And the GF is very fun. I got GFed when I got decced by hell dawn and lost something, and I GFed back.)
We didn’t ask that. We asked for better PVP atmosphere, like a revamp of FW or something. I don’t know the details but we never asked for easier fights. The needle jack filaments were a good idea though, I have to give them big credit on that.
Not vetoing this one. Just reminded me, we already have /moveme in SiSi. This feels like a /moveme, but even more fair.
We want to engage in content, but it brings people who want to pvp away from our big world. We also want fights where we shoot something that shoots back, that’s what FW is for. You take those people to a little room where they fight in peace and now all the people we shoot are the ones with mining lasers. It gets boring.
Ok. That’s not a lot of PVP. Wormholes are notoriously empty.
Thank you for bringing this up. Not vetoing this one either. Needed this evidence.
I also need to learn how to PVP. I wish there’s a little sandbox to do it in, and when I get out I have no clue how to fight outnumbered. A little shoutout to my Alliance Free Range Chikuns, we do nano gangs and we kill stuff. I now know how to fight outnumbered (though most times it doesn’t work) (also I stand on my own, not for my alliance, just saying). Instawarping also helps. I have alts in FW who solo PVP, and I need to learn that too, but it’s not worth booshing everybody who wants to solo PVP. Also look to the next reply.
Yes, which furthers my idea that this is to create a safe space for newbro PVP. I want that but I don’t want that. It’s a good direction, but not a good thing to do. Revamp FW to encourage fights (even against people who are not in militia) (all kills by militia members inside a Plex gives them LP or something, you have the brains, ask whoever thought of the needlejack filaments, the actually good kind). Remember Tunudan? Make that a PVP hub. It’s all valid possibilities.
Needlejacks are FOR roaming. This is against roaming because with them there are no longer any time to roam.
Good. Make them 3 days at most and once every three months, give us a chance at fair PVP but bring us back to the sandbox.
Maybe give KB APIs a little more thought and make the zkill leaderboards more powerful? Like the best way to bling up your killboard now is to drive a smartbombing Dessie straight into the center of the combat and get one shot on everything. That needs to change.
We already have /moveme. That is a good idea.
Not vetoing this one. Love it. Also love needlejacks. Somehow bad things are permanent (someone’s gonna make a CODE/minerbumping.com reference.)
NO! They will be popular. If they are not permanent I’ll be using them to try out new fits and just to get PVP experience and I’ll thank CCP. If they are permanent I’ll hate it because it PERMANENTLY brings people out of the sandbox (to a safe place that they never want to come out of again).
The sandbox will still be the sandbox, but people enter it for the sole purpose of getting ships to blow into the conduits (if this change happens).
Apparently some idiots thought it was 20% off directly, like an “Multi^(^%$ Shield Hardener” (new name) giving 10% (30%-20%).
We’re all worried its gonna go permanent because it will be popular. It would be popular.
This is funny. Needs more love.
It is interacting with the sandbox, but it is not PVP in the sandbox. Meaning less people PVP in the sandbox and everybody PVPs there. It’s less interesting to PVP there because it’s too easy to get a replacement ship/go in again. It becomes boring and like a MOBA, and EVE’s PVP sucks compared to that of a MOBA. It’s trying to compete with its weak points and would get flattened.
Just want to highlight, that is important in EvE because of all the theory crafting (mathematical intuition). Also, in CSGO you have to aim, in any MOBA you need to click in the right spot. A nerd with a computer to calculate the best fit available is gonna win in the arena no matter what, because this is EVE, and finger skills do not matter (except when typing, I’m getting very tired). (also I CAN do that)
Also, PM me in game. That qualification certainly helps in theory crafting, I wanna see what kinds of insight you got.
Which is actually a good part about this abyssal PVP: balancing solo pvp.
XD. But trigs are also fighting for danger in the sandbox (which actually, suits your point incentivizing people to go instanced). Funny, good idea.
Because opportunity cost. Like ore you mine aren’t free. You take people who want to PVP outside of the sandbox, less people IN the sandbox. Less people to kill roaming around, and the only place I can find fights (easily meaning people would do it more) is the instance. This is bad because it reduces the effort of a fight, and makes the fight boring. If you ever reflected on PVP you’d see that PVP is boring. You click all the buttons and you range control. It’s exciting because you just spent an hour finding this fight.
Yes it is. Look above. The term F1 monkey is quite the explanation of that. The only person that needs to think is the FC. In solo PVP, see above.
Out comes a newbro in a T1 cruiser. And it is Highsec. F.
Good idea. Responds to the point above. Makes it dangerous. But still, not so, because the ships are cheap. So even gate campers wouldn’t do it. There are some people who just want kills who would do it, but those people are in the instances already.
Uhhh… FC what do?
This could be fun. But then it’s not really alliance tournament, more like join our alliance with an alt and fight for us for our good prizes tournament. Alliance tournament is a good idea though, instant PVP like everybody wants, but still fun and not instanced.
Speaking of which, remember Chappy’s birthday bash? Go to Tunadan, get instant fights. CCP, you see how people loved that event and got into instant PVP with fun fleet fights? Think again about this event.
I went to nullsec. So did many other people. We shot bait covetors and we died. We killed ratters and we died. We died happily feeling the content in our bones. Contrary to the angry players who would lose to a blingy ship in the abyssal proving grounds because they want “fairness”
Yes, but that time it was people who wanted PVE. This meant that we can at least get fights with people shooting back. No longer with this change. Maybe they are gonna be good, I’ll go try them out (but there is already /moveme as I said), but by my experience, it will probably be bad.
Yes. Unironically, it is satisfying to 1. chase people for a turn and 2. when you kill them you feel much more satisfaction.
Also, ever heard of interceptors/scrams?
But the spending time doing other activities is outside the sandbox, and they are the rare gems who actually shoot people back for a turn. You are taking them to a place where other people cannot fight them. Boring.
Also, my best PVP experience is when I warped in a plex when two people were shooting each other (apparently they were quite tanky). I immediately got two PMs lol. You don’t get that from abyssals.
Yes, that’s the comparative advantage of every other MOBA to EvE, also EvE has terrible PVP gameplay that is “like spreadsheets”.
The fact that there is intel and not everybody knows everything is already sandbox. You also are switching the ideas around. We are criticizing the lack of sandbox only, not the leaderboard. We use the leaderboard and the killboard for intel, I don’t get how that is “anti sandbox”.
We dodge gate camps. That’s sandbox, normal people who do not want a PVP timer because they are going to yeet, or people who want to not die, avoid gate camps. And the gatecampers are trying to kill the people who want shortcuts or don’t look.
Also, etc. Blah blah blah about intel. Explain further why intel is bad to sandbox. Intel is intel, we know stuff about the enemy. Tsun Tsu said “know thy enemy, know thyself, and you will not fail a hundred battles” “知己知彼，百战不殆” Intel is vital, and Tsun Tzu said this in the context of the world, and the world is obviously a sandbox.
Phew. This is very tiring. Sorry this is too long. My hands are sore lol. Also, I lied. There’s quite a few points I liked I put in here as well. Hope you don’t mind.
2 Likes
No idea why some people are writing books in this thread. Ayways keeping it short and simple. Bad idea for most of the reasons others have mentioned already. Little point in typing out the same thing(s)
5 Likes
this tread made me tired
2 Likes
I reserve the right to invalidate the opinion of anybody quoting Tsun Tzu out of context because they think it makes them look smarter.
Tsun Tzu said that in an entire chapter of the book about the importance of spies and scouts. If you can’t tell the difference between how intelligence is collected in reality and how that differs from intel collected passively and without risk because your enemies give it away for free I question your familiarity with an often quoted but seldom read book.
If that data weren’t avaliable, we’d be putting actual scouts in actual ships with actual scanning gear and risk of death to get it. We’d be putting actual spies in actual corps and alliances to get it. The fact that it does exist takes sand out of the sandbox, because those roles are simply way less in demand. That’s way more sand out of the sandbox than a handful of people doing arena fights.
That’s fine. I don’t give a ■■■■.
I’m simply pointing out that the “muh sandbox” argument about a pvp instanced arena is stupid because its stupid in light of all the other even more anti-sandbox things we as EVE players use every single day that don’t exist in any other game.
If you’re mad about arenas because “muh sandbox” but think killboards are fine you’re at best not thinking very hard and at worst a hypocrite.
Killboards are fine.
Arenas are fine.
No they’re not going to kill the sandbox any more than local, zkill, and dotlan kill the sandbox. They won’t kill the economy because using them means ISK is blown up every time. They won’t kill roams because people don’t roam to find pvp, they roam to find ganks or respond to ganks on their friends and your gank targets aren’t flying ratting ships in the arena.
You are overreacting to a feature that only the FW types are gonna use in the first place.
Just chill and let people blow up their spaceships.
So much salt already I may have hypertension.
3 Likes
- Your point centers on one argument, which is zkill = less sandbox. Explain.
- I see the difference, but it is not relevant. People can avoid their kill mails appearing on zkill.
- Also, Tsun Tzu said stuff about spies and scouts, which exist in the EvE world. Zkill is another source of intel, comparative to newspapers. For example, if A-land attacks B-land, they would look at the B-land local newspaper: “Oh wow! They are deploying twenty thousand military personnel to somewhere over the rainbow!” It’s intel that is given away, but intel nevertheless.
- Zkill intel is not collected passively. People have to look at it. Just like they have to look at any other intel source. Say radars for example. You can say that radars are a passive intel source. It is. Does that make real life plane fights less of a “sandbox?” no.
The role of attacking enemy supers solo with a battleship was never in demand. Does that take sand away from the sandbox? No. Because it’s a dumb thing to do. You’re focusing on the Sand part, but remember, there is a Box. The box of logic tells us to not do that.
We do that.
We also do that.
Explain.
More isk is blown up because it’s easier to get a fight. But none of us are saying it will ruin the game’s economy. It just shows your lack of insight.
They roam for PVP. Ask anyone.
You’re thinking of a specific kind of roam. I’m just thinking about some peeps taking ships, going to nullsec, and killing everything they can kill.
Yes exactly, so what will happen to FW? Or anybody who does PVP? They will go to these instances. All we will see in Plexes now are NPCs.
What I mean by defeating the sandbox is that change no longer happens in fights. All fights are immediate 1 on 1 fights. There are no new ships who warp in and side with you or them, there is no www or bat phoning, there is no stake in solo fights because the isk stake is never there (10 mil ships) and the time stake is gone (immediate fights).
It’s not our fault if you got tired of getting killed.
I’m pretty sure they didn’t say that.
History is open to interpretation of what was the actual cause of SWG’s demise, but they did indeed, say exactly that:
Why not fix the game? by Zonk
Overwhelmingly, the jist of many questions we recieved was “Why do this instead of fix bugs and expand existing content?” What led to the decision to make such a drastic change in the game’s playstyle, given that there was still a large population of players who were very happy playing Galaxies as it existed two weeks ago?
John Smedley:
We didn’t feel that we could “fix” the existing game without making these changes to the number of professions. Trying to add content and balance a game with 34 different professions was just proving too difficult. We would spend weeks working on content specifically for one or two professions, but that would come at the cost of neglecting the other 30+. I think when we made the game we went too far into the direction of a “sandbox” style of gameplay, when what we needed to do was balance that out with awesome Star Wars gameplay that gives the player the feeling of being heroic.
We also had the very basic business problem of needing to appeal to a wider audience of players in order to keep the game growing rather than seeing the audience dwindle down over time. At the end of the day, our decision came down to wanting to make Star Wars Galaxies the most incredible Star Wars experience ever. Even though we know these changes will be upsetting some of our players initially, we feel that once they see how awesome we can make the Galactic Civil War, and how cool the new Star Wars content is they’ll feel like we made the right decision at the end of the day.
3 Likes
So I just came along this DEV Blog and the announcement after seeing it on Torvald Uruz stream. In General, I like the idea of making abyssal PVP available to more Players with less experience and skills.
However, the part that shocked me when reading was that the current proving grounds go away. First I thought that I dont see right or that something is wrong in that blog, but then I began to realize what actually is going to happen. I really can’t believe that the classic Arenas in the last room of Tier 3 + sites go away. It was a big shock. It just came completely unexpected. I Always thought that it gets improved, but now CCP is literally “removing” classic Abyssal PVP. It was something I really enjoyed over the past 1 1/2 years. There was never a change that hurted me so hard like this one. For Hours I couldn’t believe what actually happens. But now I sadly know it.
I am also feeling very sorry for TheCorrupted who spend a lot of time to build and maintain the current leaderboard of abyssal pvp: https://abysra.com/ he also updated the formula for the system to make it better for newer Players a few months ago.
As you see on that site, I have had 411 kills and over 400b destroyed in the Arena since december 2018. It really made me cry that it is now going away. It really hurts that it all Comes completely unexpeted to an end. I really ask myself: Is it not possible to preserve the current Arena and just add the new filaments? Can’t they coexist?
About the Arena itself, so that you hear exactly the point of view from someone who likes it:
I know that the meta was stagnant, but that has to do more with the way ships are balanced. This made it interesting for Ikis, Cerbs and Curses, and with the surgical strike patch it also added the Deimos. But FW is not that much different, although here you have to look at the fit and not the ship itself. The Meta hasnt been “solved”. What was with my Talisman Stratios? or the Shield iki? Or the dual TD/Guidance distruptor Curse? or the triple Damp Orthrus? Or the Talisman iki? Or the Talisman Gila? Or the cheap 300m Deimos with 1500dps? Or the Sacrilege? Or the Polarized ham Orthrus? Or the dual Web Ham Cerb? Or the propless dualbattery Cerb? Or the propless ham Cerb? And many more…. There are quite a lot of options. And I am Aware that a lot of them are 5b+, but as said, the Deimos that Costs 300m was able to kill Ikitursas: https://zkillboard.com/kill/84939994/
The PVE part before is bad for some Players, but not so for the balance of the Arena itself. It kept trollfits out. There are Players that love to just harrass others by bringing a full Damp Lachesis to just stalemate. I myself had early the idea of proving filaments, but with fit restrictions, so that a ship fitted with any other ewar than web, scram, neuts or target painter wont be able toactivate it and has to do a pve site first.
Please, for the love of god, rethink what you are really doing here, just because the meta is expensive and stagnant, there are Players that are happy with it. Myself included.
And I think you all dont know how it is that an activity you enjoyed for such a long time is going completely away without expecting it? I have to admit, there was never a change in the game in the past 11 years that hurt me so hard like this one: The removal of the current Abyssal PVP. And I think a lot of you guys will see me streaming on Twitch on a weekend, doing an Abyssal site in an Ikitursa, getting in the last room and realizing that there is no proving gate! It will take weeks, when not even months to get used to that it is gone.
As said, I like the idea to give options for less experienced Players, but please, dont remove the proving grounds, Keep them!!!
1 Like
It’s not complement, it can’t be by design. People in instanced content are not in the sandbox. The sandbox lives from the amount of people interested and interacting in its content. If you remove people regardless of how small the number may be the sandbox play is at a loss. This does not talk about the quality of players, like streamers, roaming gangs which could amplify this loss.
Also the mindset of players liking to play arena games is different to those liking competitive and inherent unfair sandbox gameplay. Hence attracting new players with arenas is a poisoned gift for the core of EvE.
6 Likes
This Deimos probably cost multiple billion ISK, not the fake 300M shown on zkill ignoring the full red fit.
Also you liked the content only because you solved it, and can brag about your kills. I understand that, I also had this moments in the past more than once. You will find a new niche hopefully (going alone against 2 …3 in the new mode?). Though CCP is cutting down solo content more than ever right now.
1 Like
These Abyssal modules were T2 + Decayed/Gravid, so it wasnt multiple billions, you could also check out Torvald uruz or fobos Achasses stream. They used the same Deimos fit too