Redefining Supercapitals to Benefit Everyone

The state of supercapitals obviously isn’t great right now. A set of 3 coalitions basically rule the universe through their mass-proliferation of these incredibly overpowered ships. Supercapitals were originally conceived as something that entire alliances would need to work towards for significant amounts, but over time due to a combination of factors they’ve turned into stretch goals for players. This group-level goal is something that should still be implemented, and with the recent nerfs to resources in nullsec, this seems like a great time to do it.

Because of how many supercapitals there are in Eve we can’t simply remove them and carry on without throwing away the tens or hundreds millions of manhours of work that went into making them, and removing an important long-term goal for players. And if it’s decided to just increase the cost of these ships, it only serves to benefit the people who already acquired them for a cheaper value.

So to deal with these issues, I suggest a 2 part solution:

  1. Nerf the current iteration of supercapitals into the ground, while keeping the material cost to build them the same. This keeps these ships as a stretch goal for pilots, but stops them from being the overpowered mess they currently are.
  2. Create a new set of T2 supercapitals, requiring T2 materials and around 10x the normal minerals that the current iterations cost. These ships would be more specialized than the current iteration was before the above nerf, and serve as a new collective goals for groups.

The Titan Nerfs

The goal here is the turn the current iteration of Titans into slightly more powerful dreads without siege modules, it would however retain its command burst bonuses and EWAR resistances.

  • Completely remove the bonus to plates and extenders.
    • Maximum tank should be around 10 million EHP
  • A 25% reduction in damage bonuses across the board.
  • Doomsdays, Phenom Generators, and Jump Portal Generators can no longer be fitted.
  • Reduction of Warp Core Strength to +4 per level

The Supercarrier Nerfs

The current iteration supercarriers would here be turned into a more anti-capital focused carrier. Like the old titans it would retain its bonuses to command bursts and EWAR resists.

  • Nerf Fighter Tube Count to 3.
    • New Squad Limits Changed to: 2 Heavy / 3 Light / 1 Support.
    • Can no longer field Long Range Attack fighters. (Bye Super Ratting!)
  • Can no longer fit Burst Projectors.
  • Completely remove the bonus to plates and extenders.
    • Maximum tank should be around 8 million EHP
  • Reduction of Warp Core Strength to +2 per level

The New Command Titan

The idea behind this class is to have an absolute brick of a ship with not much offensive capabilities, but an absurd amount of tank and the ability to influence the battlefield. To give some bullet points:

  • Doomsdays cannot be fitted.
  • Phenom Generators and Jump Portal Generators can be fitted.
  • Significant increase in Command Burst Effectiveness.
  • Maximum tank should be around 100 million EHP
  • Damage equivalent to about 75% of a dreadnought.

The New Combat Titan

This class of ship should be about where titans are in their current iteration.

  • Phenom Generators and Jump Portal Generators cannot be fitted.
  • Doomsdays can be fitted.
  • Targeted Doomsdays can now max out at 3 million damage.
  • Maximum tank should be around 60 million EHP
  • Maximum damage should be around 30,000 DPS

The New Fleet Carrier

This is an idea that Asher floated recently, and I absolutely love it so I’m going to include it here. These ships can be docked in by fleet members, allowing the carrier to transport entire fleets vast distances. Like the Fleet Support Titan these ships are absolute bricks, but don’t have significant offensive capabilities.

  • Contains a docking bay large enough to house 200 subcapital pilots.
  • Significant increase in Command Burst Effectiveness.
  • Maximum tank should be around 50 million EHP
  • Has 3 Fighter Tubes
    • Squad Limits: 3 Light / 1 Support

The New Mothership

Like the Combat Titan, this class should be somewhat on-par with its pre-nerf counterpart.

  • Has 5 Fighter Tubs
    • Squad Limit: 4 Heavy / 5 Light / 2 Support
  • Can fit Burst Projectors
    • Burst Projects get a 200% increase in AOE range.
  • Maximum tank should be around 30 million EHP

All of the old ships and the new variations would retain their ability to receive FAX reps, making these ships still extremely difficult to kill, but with the overall reduction in EHP allowing dedicated enough forces to break through these reps with Alpha damage.

Overall, this turns supercapitals in their current form into something that only groups and the batshit-insanely-rich can achieve, but still respects the time and effort that went into making the supers that already exist.

Now I hear you asking, “What’s stopping this problem from repeating itself 5 years down the line?” Well to answer that let’s look at why this problem exists today. Rorquals when their were changed back in 2016 massively reduced the effort required to mine large amounts of minerals. What they didn’t do however is hugely affect the T2 market, because T2 production requires not only minerals but Moon Goo and PI Products. Even with the new Moon Mining mechanics there’s still a hard limit on how much Moon Goon you can acquire in x-time.

To see this effect (or lack-thereof) in action, take a look at the Jump Freighter market. In the past 4 years the price and availability of Jump Freighters has barely changed. This is because unlike supercapitals which just require an ass-ton of minerals and component BPCs to produce, Jump Freighters require an abundance of materials from multiple difference sources along with several layers of production to get a finished product. I believe this process can be adapted to create T2 Supercapitals, and a class of ship which takes not only money, but true effort to produce.

Can you explain what you mean by nerfing supers “into the ground”?

What stops these new T2 supers from having the same problem all over again?

It’s clear you haven’t actually put much thought into this.

Considering you answered within 120 seconds of my post, I’m going to say you didn’t read the whole thing. Both those questions were answered.

I don’t really need to read more than that to know you haven’t really put much thought into it.

Well, thanks for the ‘constructive’ comments then lol

You’re not welcome. It’s a bad idea and I don’t think it has any merit.

This doesn’t solve the issue.
You need to turn them into fleet support ships which are less powerful in direct combat than regular caps.

It may require new code, @Arrendis has done a good breakdown on some roles such as titans being mobile battlefield deploying stations, and super carriers actually literally jumping fleets with them.

This makes it so they provide nice utility but are by no means essential.

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I’m having trouble finding their post, but just going off of what you said:

I’d hesitate to throw the current ships that’ve already been built into that role. A highly specialized role would just flood the market as people try to sell off their supers that are no longer of any use to them. And this wouldn’t solve the lack of large-scale goals for groups to work towards.

I could see the argument against the proposed Combat Titans and Motherships, but I’d be very cautious about relegating an extremely large amount of ships that already exist, and were historically dedicated to combat to a support role.

Mega-Hyper-Dooper-Sooper Capitals. OMGPWN!

I think this isn’t a desirable goal.
Grouos should be working towards social goals such as control of a space, not towards ubber ships.

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So, let me stop you right there.

This is not the way you balance supercapitals. This is not the way you balance supercapitals because this is, essentially, the exact same thing CCP relied on in the first place: make the expense of them a limiting factor.

Supercapital proliferation has been pretty solidly on an acceleration curve since approximately 0.25 seconds after CCP decided to design the damned things. That’s because EVE’s economy is fundamentally accretion-based: the more you have, the better you are able to get more, faster. Making ‘normal’ supercapitals nigh-useless only means they won’t be used.

At all.

There will be literally no reason to use up this thing that took significant time and effort to get, which means CCP will have made that time and effort seemingly worthless. Making players’ time and effort seem worthless is a great way to disincentivize people to play. After all, if the company is willing to make one player’s efforts worthless, they’ll make anyone’s efforts worthless. And if that effort—and utterly irreplaceable time spent playing—is worthless, then why play?

They won’t. People will quit, both current supercapital pilots, and anyone who was looking forward to getting one. And people who understand that that behavior means the things they want might be the next thing made completely worthless in a poorly thought out attempt to ‘balance’ things.

And for those who don’t leave? Well, they’ll just get on the road to making the 10x as much stuff and get the T2 version. But as yourself: who’s gonna be able to do that?

Do you think small groups will be able to do it? Or will it be the big groups? Because I can tell you right now, there are players in Goonswarm who already have that amount of materials, in the form of owning 10+ titans. I’d be shocked if there aren’t a few of them in PanFam, Legacy, WinterCo, and probably even DeadCoalition.

So what you end up with is the rich, who are already well-positioned to make a lot of money and minerals, make more of these, faster, than the little guys can. And they don’t wait for the little guys. Sure, some groups, like Legacy or the Imperium, tend not to punch down at little guys, preferring to hit their traditional enemies among the large blocs, but some—and I’m looking squarely at PanFam here—have a long history of not only picking on much weaker groups, but bragging about it, as if an alliance of 3000 supercapital pilots has any business being proud of successfully fighting groups like Provi. Frankly, if they couldn’t, that’d be pathetic.

So they’d go right back to taking a giant crap all over the little guys, but now they’d have these new T2 supertitans, and enjoy stopping those little guys from getting their own for even longer, because it takes 10x as much time and effort to get one.

Cost—either by actual price, time invested, or effort needed—is not the way to begin balancing these ships. That is what CCP tried, and why CCP once famously estimated there would never be more than 4 of these things in the game.

As for the rest? Meh.

Making supercapitals less-effective across the board is silly. Supers should be the big, turgid shaft you slap on the table when the enemy brings out capitals. That’s what they’re for. But they should be damned near helpless against suitably large fleets of subcapitals.

And holy carp, remove bridges from titans? Congratulations, now small groups that just use their titans for bridging are completely screwed.

Asher’s ‘fleet carrier’ idea isn’t a bad one, just like it wasn’t when I proposed it back in July (or when the RP community came up with it a week earlier). But that doesn’t need to be a new ship. That should be what all supercarriers are.

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Another post by some one who doesn’t use capitals on a reg basis trying to nerf null from high sec

if you want nerf de super//titan put just a area effect on them who reduce the resistance and HP of each other super//titan on the field and do this effect cumulable like that each new super//titan on the field lower each other ship of the same size

Limit the amount of supers that can be held in one system. Your welcome.

Please elaborate.

Why do people believe that “everyone” must have a sooper dooper at some point and why do people believe this is something “everyone” would want??

They don’t rule through force at all, it’s called “skilled diplomacy” with the “threat of force” - Give your enemy what he/she wants and you shall have peace, refuse and you shall have war unending.

There is not enough players for nullsec to go up in flames, focus on new players instead of trying to screw each other over :slight_smile:

3 coalitions?

Anyway, solar weather patterns in null and low and (arguably something that should be done already certainly in facwar space) militia or faction navy system/constellation wide cyno jams, npc counter drops, blackouts… etc etc… hell could even have some weather leave residual gas and asteroid/ice formations paving way to more content, minerals and different anoms/storylines/ships…

AND btw wtf is up with npc sotiyo and fob? one is a hell of a lot more powerful and yet there is nothing inbetween??

i dont think these ships are overpowered for hd… well i suppose now that combat ceptors and frog fleets are dead they probably are… but weather systems could do a lot to improve eves life/fun/balance.

I’m assuming he means the Imperium, Legacy, and PanFam. Obviously, there are additional, smaller coalitions out there, but with FRT officially welcomed into PanFam, that essentially makes WinterCo kind of… PanFam Associated, so it’s not hard to see how he’d view those 3 as ‘ruling’ nullsec.

when last i looked test was with legacy/winterco and they had joined hands with the imperium?

Admitedly i dont really keep up with it.

TEST is at the core of Legacy (along with Brave). WinterCo is not Legacy. Legacy and WinterCo were, in fact, fighting a pretty acrimonious (if not really eventful) war against one another over most of this last year, centered over the FI-RE (or however xDeath spells it) Coalition’s desire to a)punch FRT in the mouth for helping kick them out of the Drones, and b)get off Legacy’s couch.

Legacy and the Imperium are neighbors, and we are generally civil neighbors, but it’s kind of like how Imperial Germany and the Republic of France were generally civil neighbors in 1910: we shoot at one another, we just don’t really go to war against one another at home. Right now, for example, TEST (and maybe the rest of Legacy, I’m not sure?) are up north attacking DeadCo, alongside PanFam. The Initiative., an Imperium member alliance, are helping DeadCo with their side of the fight, and obviously enough, the rest of the coalition will assist Init if asked.

That doesn’t mean we’re technically at war with Legacy or TEST, we’re just kind of on the periphery of a shooting war they happen to be in. That also doesn’t mean Legacy and PanFam are buddies, they just happen to currently be shooting the same guys.