i cant deny that some guys…
totally not me…
may fell like that … 
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1984 is a lot simpler than most people imagine. It is essentially about idealism vs realism.
And yet Winston chooses neither.
Does that make him free? Possibly, but without dreams either of power or true freedom
“ Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else .” ( Orwell…1984 )
Something Eve Online demonstrates every day. Idealism wins. It is possible to construct an entire world out of people’s thoughts.
Sorry you have lost me.
Then you are Winston.
yes
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
but that make sense in dune history but not in 1984
the BOX in dune is a similar macguffin
the conclusion is different , humans can resist anything … it’s cool to think like that
but Paul is a “super hero “
im a big fan of stoic philosophy and the teachings of the Tao Te Ching
i question myself if Marcus Aurelius or lao tzu … maybe they could
but deep down i don’t think so
they are humans to
Not really, I will fight for what I believe in, and I do believe in a great many things.
I will never betray myself.
That’s assuming you aren’t an NPC in World 1.0
Yeah I really have no idea what point you are trying to make.
The moment you choose an excuse is the moment you surrendered any chance or hope of conquering your fears or at least trying to.
There are people who survived the concentration camps, gulags and worse and afterwards still were able to build a family and live a somewhat normal life. There are examples for not giving up your ideals and beliefs as well even if that means torture, slavery and getting burned alive or whatever creative ways they’ve came up with back in the days and even today.
So this whole idea of being a random nobody human means you are not capable of things any other human is total nonsense and is a choice in of itself to begin with. Everyone who achieved anything ever may it be the greatest of accomplishments was just a random human as well.
Of course it is about some special ability like talent for music or talent for scientific thinking, it is understandable, but when it only depends on one’s willpower (choice to persist) no matter the consequence, that is will alone and everyone has access to it (maybe an argument could be made for cases of mental disease but maybe not, but those are just exceptions either way).
People who give up even before trying and just try to rationalize it are just too afraid to face the facts about themselves. Which is not surprising considering they are afraid to face the potential consequences to begin with.
You don’t need to be a superhuman to make a choice, you just have to accept the consequence it will lead to (suffering and death), that is where a lot of people’s will collapses and goes for the easy way out instead. Their choice and frankly not surprising when they just come up with excuses just to not have to feel themselves as what they are, they already shown they are cowards thus no wonder they will hide from the facts about themselves too.
Still doesn’t make them less of a coward and weak will no matter whatever excuse they hide behind.
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dude
he didn’t succumb to torture
he failed on room 101
because they know everything about him , and he was faced with his r biggest fear ( like i said its a macguffin, the worst tailor made pain you could ever face , hell on earth)
and he was not the first …
‘Under the spreading chestnut tree
I sold you and you sold me——’
again
they let him go because he REALY loved big brother at the end
some people in the past did this to… the prisoner is not kept captive for ever , just enough
I’m with you that there is real life heroes that did the impossible…
I’m just saying that Winston was NOT a coward and he failing is also one of the points of the book
the futile fight of the individual
its impossible to continue with no examples in real politics
i will say like that
i would probably break , and you too…
we have to fight to avoid that this things happen again
That’s the problem, you already gave up before even trying, the mere thought of just a fictional scenario makes you surrender. There is nothing else to be said to be honest.
As for the futility of resisting the system and your resistance not making a difference we already discussed with Ramona above. But that is not what this is about. It is about being true to yourself, not betraying your own ideals.
Your entire thought process and mindset is clearly shown by this:
Completely negating what I try to open your eyes to in the very post you replied to. It is not just not impossible but very possible in reality… if you choose so.
You can not even process the thought that it can be done, because your mind tries to escape from the mere thought of it. You made your choice.
Which is fine but then trying to say it is not cowardice is just nonsense and you know it. Based on your choice you will not admit it as that would admit being a coward who doesn’t even try so it’s easier just to say it is “beyond my capabilities” and “it is impossible” and whatever else nonsense.
It doesn’t affect my life so am not here to burst your fake reality bubble or self-perception. Though am here to discuss things and if someone says something contrary to facts I might take the time to mention it. So nothing personal but that’s how it goes.
Don’t really thing this will lead anywhere as I’ve explained it in great detail so the rest is on the individual whether they decide to consider it and face the reality the facts mean or just ignore it as that is the easy way out.
Either way continuing this exchange feels fruitless and also don’t feel the need to convince you or change your way of thinking either so probably added my part to the conversation and anyone can do whatever they feel like with what’s written.
In the end everyone will do and choose as they decide and others will think of it as they do no matter what rationalization one comes up with so nothing at stake.
you are pissed because i said
i have no intention in changing your point of view
it was a joke
Winston could have being killed , like Joseph K , like a dog , or being held in jail for ever
IMO the book have a powerful arc
and is SOOOO important nowadays
As talking about this with Ramona completely agree. There will be a point of no return so unless people realize this and not prevent things to reach that point every thing can get screwed and forever.
Though there are less obvious methods at work even today and the shaping of minds and the ways people think as always is in motion without people realizing it which has been done since ages as there are always people who seek control others for their own benefit and they use such methods no matter what time period we are in.
Unfortunately am not sure people will actually want to prevent reaching that state as to them, due to these manipulations it might seem like a beneficial future, which is the very point of manipulating people in the first place.
yes yes
its a cautionary tale
freedom to say the obvious , to say the truth
wen you type something on twitter or even here you think
did i cross the line???
If your takeaway from all this is you think that line pissed me off and the entire convo is a result of that then you think in so simple terms and are so narrow minded that probably everything here goes over your head. Probably this seems like an attempt at insult based on your reaction but nothing else I can say.
This entire conversation was about a philosophical question and whether people are responsible for their decisions and is way beyond what you show in that post that it feels completely ludicrous to discuss anything with you if that is your takeaway. Really not sure what one could say to such.
you say he was a coward because he breaks
i said he is not
i was liking the philosophic discussion a lot
i found your last post a bit personal , if not i apologise
i will not quote everything i quoted just to show you what post it is
and there is one more thing
I’m holding my hands to avoid using certain words , and thats whats the book is about , i already break ,here on the eve online forum , and thats make me a bit sad , pissed and tired
maybe i was projecting
Not a native English speaker so not sure.
But let me state my intention is not to be personal or hurt anyone’s feelings.
But also am never shying away from stating facts with complete disregard to feelings because facts matter and should matter so nothing should be watered down or twisted because of someone’s feelings (political correctness and whatnot).
This might seem like being personal or uncaring, and while true when discussing facts I care not for feelings my intention is not to hurt anyone for the sake of causing them harm but am not going to ease or twist facts just because someone might feel bad about them.
I understand if this makes you not want to engage in a conversation or be off putting. And while I don’t wish to offend anyone I also don’t wish to derail the subject or come to inappropriate conclusions just to ease someone’s feelings. Nothing personal.
Btw no reason to apologize, it just felt this whole convo was for nothing and achieved nothing because you are stuck at some basic level thing that has nothing to do with what and why we discuss since quite a while thus it seemed it was a waste of time.
Because even if the goal is not to change how the other thinks at least to get the message across even if we disagree on how we treat it and what conclusion we take from it wasting time is not my intention. So don’t worry about it just hope it is not pointless to discuss all this with you even if it alters nothing in you as that is all good.
What might be bad to talk this much and you not even “focusing” on the subject thinking there is some different motive behind it that is not even there.
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i found it productive
8./10
better than most topics
i fell bad we ended in a bad note
i said this just about your last post
oh
nevermind
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