Nah it isn’t a bad note. If you got the message then good. What you do with that message is all yours to do. As long as it was productive I consider this a good conversation regardless if it got our personal worldviews closer or further away as that is not important. The discussion was a success and only that matters and hope now that the intentions were cleared it indeed was a good convo.
i think deep down we both love the book and think its really important besides our different interpretations
Just to make this clear I understood the original intent of the book but as I wrote others can be made parallel to that. More can be taken away from a story than just one “official” interpretation and I think these two are not even in opposition with eachother as both
an oppressive regime might become too strong to ever have a chance to get rid of it
and
on a personal level you still can prevail if you are not afraid to pay the price however horrible that might be and lead to no improvement overall
are not mutually exclusive.
What Ramona added is a different take altogether and is not necessarily in contradiction but in contrast with the general message of the book.
Btw Frank Herbert’s Dune story has its background history where humans with machines ruling other man is also a similar cautionary tale that via force (in this case use of robots, machines and technology) an oppression can become so strong that it is almost impossible to overcome, while the Dune stories themselves warn against charismatic leaders, religious manipulation (fictional religion, just in case) and how one should not trust them.
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yeah and Paul itself became a charismatic tyrant
i think i relate to much to Winston because i think we are on the edge of the breaking point
again
like i said i held my hands to avoid Oldspeak here …
that makes me tired and pissed and a bit of a doomer
That slogan sort of misses the point. The only reality the Party needed to control was that inside Winston’s head. The entire crux of the O’Brien and Winston scene is the debacle between idealism and realism. Winston is a realist…he believes in an independent real world. O’Brien is presenting the idealism stance…that there is no reality other than that in your head. This deep philosophical debate ( which O’Brien goes into in some detail ) is at the core of 1984.
It is the very origin of simulation theories…and even of computer games themselves. Eve online would not exist were it not for the ability of the human mind to construct ‘realities’.
Heck…the universe does not know my Vexor is called Vexy McVexface. It is such within a reality I created.
To be honest humanity eats what humans cook for themselves. The world doesn’t just operate on its own and suddenly bad things happen. Things take decades or even centuries to cook and maybe the last stage it all exploding might be sudden but it is a process and a progress that takes a lot of time… and human effort to reach.
Just like how no tyrant can alone bring about world war II (or III for that matter) nor the elimination of millions of people or other atrocities there is always other people who support such tyrant, carry out its orders and physically perform such duties.
(Unless of course in the future by the use of drones and robots a single person or small group can do that, maybe after a nuclear “cleansing” of the world to reduce the numbers to a “manageable” amount but probably even then this could not be accomplished without support from a larger group.)
So what every cautionary tale should really warn us about and teach humans is that every single person has personal responsibility for the well-being of others and the entire world in general.
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i don’t think its a discussion between idealism and realism.
its between individualism and group thinking
agree
hitler has no power with no support of the people
also agree
who takes our liberty ? Us
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Yes I hope I was clear that I wasnt actually stating “The meaning of the book is this, and you are wrong”.
Its an art form and as such it makes us (and requires us) to think about how it affects us but also how it may affect others who perceive the world differently through differing experiences.
I simply was coming from the perspective that 1) I will do literally ANYTHING to stay to true to my own principles 2) Torture is not a way to get anyone to do anything except say what you want them to.
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Talking about something else but related to opressive stuff: I learned by seeing the world through my own eyes that the control over violence or even the monopoly over violence only leads to opression.
The State has monopoly over violence, that’s why people are so neurotic nowadays, everybody is opressed and people can’t really hurt or even kill others. So we have the modern sociopaths dancing around laws and rules and completely harassing other people in real life, the victims only get hurt over and over emotionally and mentally and they aren’t allowed to cut through other people’s ■■■■■■■■ and kill them.
So people can’t be free of manipulative lying aholes who only honeyed their skills related to speech and manipulation, simple people can’t fight that off using their social skills and they would only be able to fight sociopaths off just through physical violence (which the State has monopoly).
This is how I think, this is why I hate real life carebears!
They weasel their way to the best job positions, best parking shops at the mall, best slice of food at the restaurantes and so on. They know people can’t just murder them because of a parking spot since the State has monopoly over violence.
So real life carebears and sociopaths who behave like carebears are all weasels who treat real life as high sec and treat EVE’s high sec as a perfectly safe spot for farming. They are farming in real life and they are farming in EVE, just because the State has monopoly over violence.
How toxic can a person be when they know that the State has monopoly over violence and everywhere is high sec? They can be 100% toxic as much as they please and use it as a tool.
Disagree (*punches Billy)
Violence may be inherent in the system, but we are all capable of and responsible for our use of it.
If you are talking scale or quantity, then it stands to reason N+1 is the ultimate sanction of the State.
You just contradicted yourself!
Because what you just said implies that violence is tutored by the State and then right over the use violence can be bestowed according to the State.
No it doesn’t. It clearly states that the system of governance can’t exist without violence as an ultimate sanction, but we are all able to use it (“we are all capable”) but bear our own responsibilty for its use (i.e. to enforce our legal will or to commit a crime with), which is exactly how the State uses it, but on a larger scale.
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Don’t judge a man, however fictitious, until you’ve lain on his wrack.
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I’m not saying that I was threatened by a GM for naming my ship “████ is a Dude”.
That would be crazy!!!
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I name all my ships the same name: roadkill
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Hi
Since I need visual reminders the best thing I thought to do is use names that would remind me of the game environment I fly in.
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Some semi funny names I have done.
- Abadaddy
- IMINAROKH
- NOTHEDROIDSULOK4
otherwise I don’t do funny names and suck at them and half the time i forget to even rename my ship until my FW-corp tells me I forgot.
- Fist of Amarr
- Vengeance of Amarr
- Spear of the Empress
- Golden Dragon
should rename Quagmire to Giggity
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My relic Buzzard is “It Belongs in a MUSEUM”
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